Duane Newton 0:04

Hi, welcome to Navigating Your Path. I'm your host, Duane Newton. My guest today is my longtime friend and colleague, Dr. Donna Wolk. Donna is the division chief of molecular and microbial diagnostics and development at Geisinger Health System in Danville, Pennsylvania, where she's been for the past 13 years. It was really a thrill for me to chat with her and learn that she was a first-generation college graduate in her family, a single parent raising her daughter through grad school, how a serendipitous health and wellness discovery changed the path of her life, and the impact that an important book had in helping her learn how to give herself more grace. We actually had a bit of a technical glitch about two-thirds of the way through, so if you're watching the video, you may see a slight change. But otherwise, you're getting our real, unfiltered, and unedited conversation. I hope you enjoy. Thanks for joining today. I, I really appreciate it. Um, it's exciting for me to start doing this and, um, getting a chance to. Talk with people who I have known for so many years and admire and love and just feel like this strong sense of connection. I, you know, when we met, uh, the date was, uh, May 27th, 2004.

Donna Wolk 1:36

Yeah, I,

Duane Newton 1:37

I

Donna Wolk 1:37

it well,

Duane Newton 1:38

I didn't know the date until I saw your cv and you had, uh, you had it on there when, uh, we passed our boards. That was a, I was thinking about that. Um, me and you and Jan Matthews Greer and Jim Dunn. Is there anyone else that's part of the group?

Donna Wolk 2:01

those are the four that I remember and sitting on the floor in the convention center, and going into the rooms together to be grilled by the, at that time, the key microbiologists in America. So, Yeah, fun times.

Duane Newton 2:16

Yeah, it was. I was also remembering. Um, so that was in New Orleans and then, um, maybe about 10 years later, uh, we had the meeting in New Orleans again and I happened to be going to some kind of meeting or something, uh, in that same hotel. And I had this deja vu flashback feeling, a traumatic experience of walking through. I remember the carpet and the kind of the architecture in there. It was, it was pretty fun. Yeah. Bonding through trauma.

Donna Wolk 2:50

Yeah. I mean, I think I sat down on the floor after the letter and just cried, you know, of happiness. I,

Duane Newton 2:57

It, it was, um, that was, you know, it was early in our careers too, and um, to.

Donna Wolk 3:08

I'm a bit older than you, Duane. 'cause I went back to school later in life. So, um, it was early for my, doctoral career, but. You know, I had worked quite a bit as a medical lab scientist before, uh, I went back to school and got my PhD.

Duane Newton 3:25

At, and you started at Penn State and

Donna Wolk 3:29

undergrad.

Duane Newton 3:30

you got your undergrad, and how long did you work as a, a bench technologist.

Donna Wolk 3:35

Other shirt on. Today day

Duane Newton 3:37

I see that. How long did you work as a a, as a tech at the bench.

Donna Wolk 3:48

I, I worked until 19, probably four or five years at, at the regular bench, uh, as a generalist and then microbiology. And then I got promoted to assistant supervisor of microbiology, supervisor of microbiology. at the time I was going back to school, I was offered the entire lab manager position. And so it was, um. It was a coming reckoning moment because I had to decide if I'm choosing science or administration full time now. The, you know, the science jobs have plenty of administrative roles and financial and strategy and analytics, but I still get my little feed of science, um, with the role that I have and am able to do scientific research, uh, to improve patient care. So, at the time I was a single mom and thinking of going back to school with a 4-year-old, uh, driving the U-Haul across America for a doctoral program where I was old enough to be some of the student's parent the program. Um, you know, that was sort of, uh, a big adventure for me. My first recreation, I guess, um, single mom through grad school, but, um. It all worked out. I did my postdoc at Mayo Clinic, worked in Arizona for several years, and, and then when the job I, I have now opened up, it was where I worked as a bench. scientist. So, you know, kind of coming back home,

Duane Newton 5:29

Full circle.

Donna Wolk 5:30

and uh, so full circle for me.

Duane Newton 5:33

Yeah, that's, that's really, uh, an interesting story and I think that. Um, one of the, the goals of being able to talk to you and others that have leadership roles in our field is, can get an appreciation for how, um, different everyone's path has been. And, um, I'm really curious as to maybe some of the thought process that was going through your head at the time when you were, you know,

Donna Wolk 6:11

Yeah, I

Duane Newton 6:12

from the bench, you know, to, to just make those decisions, to, to do something different.

Donna Wolk 6:19

I mean, it, it's gonna sound dramatic, um, when I say it, but, um, or maybe a little naive, um, if you will, but I had, uh, I was getting, um, I was a new single parent and, um, wanted to do something that would allow promotion from my, my role, but didn't want to, as I said, leave science behind me. so, uh, at that time, I already had my master's in health administration, so that was a track for me. But I wanted to, to stick with microbiology. And so, um. I literally woke up in the middle of the night and sat up in bed and sort of scared myself awake. And the, you know, I, my thought was the only thing you know how to do well is microbiology, so just do it and keep doing it. And so then I applied to, uh, graduate schools across the country. I applied to med school at the time, but, um, I was a returning an older student and my medical school interviews were like a little bit, uh, I don't, I can't see me as the grandmother in this group. And, um, you know, I really just did love microbiology, so I sort of gave up the clinical pathology notion to just do microbiology. And, um, I had, um. After I had my daughter, I was moving an in incubator and popped a disc in my back. Um, and so I had, uh, pretty terrible pain, uh, during the early years of her life, and I had been to an ASM meeting. In, um, Las Vegas, I think at that time. I noticed that I didn't have any pain when I was in the desert. And I thought, that's weird because I had so much pain when I left Pennsylvania. um, so then I took a vacation out to Arizona to see if this whole thing was real and same thing. then that kind of led me towards my degree at the University of Arizona

Duane Newton 8:29

Wow.

Donna Wolk 8:30

because I was pain free and I, I went from being a single parent laying on the floor with my daughter, playing after work on the floor with her 'cause she was young to out coaching her soccer teams and having a vibrant, healthy life there. Um, so, uh, Tucson, Arizona healed me in many, many ways, and that's one of them.

Duane Newton 8:53

Wow. That, uh, that is incredible. That is sort of this health and wellness, um, quality of life kind of issue that was a decision maker for you in that.

Donna Wolk 9:09

My surgeon told me that, um, the nerves would heal over time, but it would take a very long time. And so, um, when I talked to him afterwards, he said, you know, you're just a little, always dehydrated in the desert and that takes the pressure off of it. And it was true for many, many years. Um, I would come home to pe, I would have pain, I would go to Arizona, no pain. And even when I went to Mayo Clinic, um, that was my first trip four years later in a cold climate. I had a little bit of pain there. Um, once I got rid of the high heel shoes though, I was okay. And from then on I've been, I've been fine. So yeah, it's funny how life pushes you in one direction or another. I never was a person who saw myself. As a doctoral person, I was happy to get out of medical technology school, get a job, really understand why people would go back to school. I was first generation, um, for my family, didn't really have a big worldview. And going from that to being someone who's been in almost every state speaking about microbiology, uh, multiple countries and continents, speaking about microbiology, um, you know, it, it's just a privilege to, to be able to have done that from my little town in the middle of nowhere, Pennsylvania, um, to, to meeting so many amazing and passionate microbiologists around the world and having those relationships and seeing the young people and their passion as they kind of take over the reigns. Having met some of. The elder, um, icons of microbiology during my career where, you know, you kind of wanna ask for their, um, autograph when you see them on the escalator to, um, you know, being lucky enough to be mentored or have a conversation with folks like that. It, it's, it's been a career, um, of a lifetime for me. And as I look towards succession planning and actual retirement someday in, in the future, you know, there's a lot of reflection, um, that just kind of keep going. You, you do what you love, what you do, you keep going. And, you know, I think me, I always tell people I, I kind of. I plan five to 10, 10 years ahead in my mind and do backward design. How do I get there? And now my five to 10 years is retirement, and what do I, uh, how do I get myself there? But also the people in the succession plan and the, the fa the, the people that I work with in the laboratory who, you know, are, are very close to all of us. And, um, lots of different, I feel like I'm standing on the page of the next chapter and, you know, I've just gotta jump off that edge and, and make that. plan.

Duane Newton 12:19

I wanna go back to the time. You when you were then, you know, starting to get more focused into clinical micro and you've got your PhD and you spent your time in Arizona. Was there anything, um, as dramatic as, you know, you're healing your back that had an impact on your, um, your, uh, decision and selection to go into Mayo?

Donna Wolk 12:48

Oh, well that was, um, you know, at that time, um. I'm a country kid. I afraid to be in a small city like Tucson when I first moved there and, and adapted. It's, it's like a big small town. It's a great place to live and it, and, and heal with

Duane Newton 13:07

Hmm.

Donna Wolk 13:08

you know, the dry air and the desert, uh, and the people, uh, that were very welcoming me. I think, um, maybe not as, uh, dramatic, but certainly, uh, imp a cr a pivotal moment for me, um, was when I was in, in grad school and I was, was in the process of applying for postdoc fellowship. There were only two in the country at that time um, I worked in the same building as Beth Marlowe and we were talking about this and she's like, said to me, tell me more. And so. You know, I applied to Mayo, she applied to UCLA. Um, I was not a city person, so I did not apply to UCLA if Mayo hadn't taken me, I'm not exactly sure what I would've done. But I was lucky enough to get accepted into their program. the, the thing at the time was funny because I worked on the second floor, she worked on the third floor, and the both of us were the two ABMM or CPEP Fellows that year. And we've, we've been close, you know, ever since. Um, the thing that struck me in graduate school, as, as a, you know, sort of a, a more mature person, um, and being in classes with people a decade or more younger than, than me. And kind of seeing it from a different perspective than my undergraduate, kind of memorize your way through classes. And so the problem solving and the observation of what I was seeing in academia at the time, I was at a national conference in Hawaii when I had this sort of revelation. Um, and I hope it rings true to many people, but it, it, it does have a, twist, I guess. And you remember this was sort of the late nineties, um, the, I was up all night preparing my PowerPoint presentation for the next day at the scientific meeting with the, the hotel room open and the waves crashing on the rocks that I could hear them. I mean, it was beautiful, but I didn't sleep all night. I had breakfast with my, uh, one of my mentors the next morning and his wife and I am. C fully caffeinated at the breakfast, just worried about my talk, the first international talk I'm given and, and the award speech and all of that. And, uh, you know, we were talking about it being busy and lovely and all that. And, and the person said to me, oh yeah, I was, I was up early to ironing all of his clothes and it, and actually ironing his underwear. And so I thought to myself, wow, I need a strategy here because don't have somebody to pack my bag to iron my clothes to. You know, I was still a single mom and doing all of that. And I'm like, if you, myself, if you wanna survive in this career, you better figure some shortcuts out. You know, you better, um. Figure out what you can give up, what needs to say, what's, what's critically important to you and what you can let go of, because you will never survive if, if you don't, you know, think through those things. Now, I always had a really good friend and family support system, everybody. I'm very blessed. just the day-to-day grind of our jobs and, and as we go through our careers are very demanding. And, and sometimes behind the scenes, like, you know, medical laboratory doesn't always get hoopla or the resources from organizations. You have to continually, um, work towards that. And, and that moment at that breakfast had. Started my path to thinking five, 10 years ahead. Okay. I'm not gonna have the resources of anatomic pathology or chemistry even, or hematology. I mean, microbiology revenue is small and the, but the impact downstream is large. So I began sort of planning, well, how can I research money? What kind of samples do I have? What can I do? I took, and when I got my first job, I just took myself to meetings and, cold called vendors and people with funding around the campus and met some amazing people and got on some, you know, uh, grants with people at the university and learned and took extra research courses to be able to chart my path in a way that I could fend for myself a little bit better. And for the microbiology labs. So, you know, some people go into that. Their whole career by design or by default. I think mine was by design. How do I survive? How do I, uh, do my job well I have more limited support than maybe some other people, when the microbiology biology not the biggest part of the laboratory and how do I make that happen? And, and lo and behold, I just talked to so many people that some people took me up on my ability to, to do that and lead a research team, which I had never done before. then I, I, I ask and ask the Bio five Institute, which was our new translational research Institute, there. Five different times I had to go and, you know, kind of beg like, look, I know I can bring in money. Like, will you bring me into the Bio five Institute? It would help the infrastructure. And finally they, I think they just got sick of me asking and said, well, we'll give you a little office in a bench. And, and that's really how I grew the clinical trial team, which is useful if you have to try to decide what instrument you wanna buy for your laboratory. And took data courses and research courses, um, in the College of Public Health and became a translational research scholar at the University of Arizona because a PhD. wet lab doesn't teach you how to do clinical medicine research. You know, you need epidemiology or biostatistics and methodology and things that I didn't have. So I got a research certificate and joined that community who was very supportive of me and then kind of that concept here to where I am today. So, I mean, all of those things were really about survival. the part that I didn't tell about the, you know, the awakening of you, I only know how to do microbiology, was, you know, I wanna pave the way for a life that's gonna be for my daughter. Um, make sure that she can do teams and things that she needs on one salary. Um. But above and beyond that, like I knew I, some somewhere in me, I thought I could do it. And getting the PhD was never the real goal for me. Although once I got there and my brain sort of settled into that, I mean, I love it. It's, there's nothing else in the world I'd rather do, but I really made the decision to do it, not to become something or someone, or somebody or some role, but, you know, to really make sure that I and my family could, um, survive. So

Duane Newton 21:15

You had that,

Donna Wolk 21:16

of a, a weird, uh, story, I guess maybe to admit. But, I never really planned on this, but I'm, I feel awfully lucky.

Duane Newton 21:27

the, the, um, the story that you told from the meeting in Hawaii that you were, um, a fellow at the time.

Donna Wolk 21:36

No, I was a, a PhD student.

Duane Newton 21:38

You're a PhD student

Donna Wolk 21:40

Yeah.

Duane Newton 21:40

and so then, uh, Mayo Clinic for your fellowship and then back to Arizona to run the clinical lab at the hospital there

Donna Wolk 21:51

Yeah.

Duane Newton 21:51

and then onto Geisinger. Yeah.

Donna Wolk 21:56

Uh, you know, the, the, and the thing, you know, obviously there are many people to admire, um, in all the places I'm at, but at Mayo Clinic, um, Dr. Glenn Roberts and. Uh, John Rosenblatt, uh, were people that I communicated with quite a bit, and I, uh, you know, there's just these phrases that stick with you and you, you feel like it's a life changing moment, but you don't know what the future will bring. And all had to cancel rounds one day to go to an ethics class. And John Rosenblatt said to all of us, what do you mean I'll give you your class, do the right thing. And I'm like, you're right. I, I li his voice is in my head for my entire career, just from that one moment in time. So, know, as, as younger folks in the, in the profession asked me like, what kind of lessons do you have? Um, or wisdom, like, I really don't have, uh, you know, inherent wisdom, I paid attention. I learned what I could from whoever I could. And, and there's certain things that will stick with you. And I would say, you know, start out your career and you think it's going to last a really long time, you know, oh my gosh, I have to work till I'm, whatever. But it's really, um, maybe trite to say, but you blink and your, your role changes from striving to mentoring, from grinding, you know, towards a goal to supporting infrastructure and succession plans. And, you know, you, you just have to pay attention at every step, or you miss it, you miss the boat and you're done, you know.

Duane Newton 23:42

I think you're, um, not giving yourself enough credit for your wisdom, because I think it takes a lot of wisdom to pay attention and to, you know, know the difference between what's right and what's wrong and figure that out, you know, and it, when to go back to as well to some of the, the things that you, you were talking about, you know, it is almost like, um, there were some gut feelings that were directing you and driving you and to certain directions. Is that, um. Is that something, those, you know, your intuition and that sense of self was, was that always, you know, was that a part of your, your essence, your personality? Or is that something that, um, you know, did you always trust that? Or is it something that it took a while over time to, um, to, to develop?

Donna Wolk 24:48

I, I kind of did, I mean, uh, was a child of the sixties and seventies, you know, I'm getting a little long in the tooth. But, um, I've always liked to read, um, philosophy and, and, um, things that aren't in the science realm. I, I have a col, a, a notebook of quotes that inspire me, um, that I've kept since high school that remind me to be, become the best person. I can be and to leave the, the world a little bit scooch better than I found it. I don't have any aspirations of grandeur. I mean, when, I think the most important thing is not to be too full of yourself, not to think you're so important that people can not get along with without your presence because they will. I mean, the day you're gone is you're gone and people will remember you fondly, perhaps, but you can't ball up what you do with who you are. And so I always had these little quotes in mind. I think one of the most challenges part of of my career was single parenting and graduate school. And, uh, I had what I would call my refrigerator of inspiration, um, in the nineties, you know, you could buy all those little refrigerator magnets with all those cool sayings, and I would just, it was filled with things that I had to remind myself. And, you know, when people would come to the, we always had a lot of people in our house, kids, people, um, you know, as a single parent, a family, we had a big picture in our hallway. A family is a circle of friends who love you. Um, people would be like, what's with the refrigerator, Donna? And I'm like, they're, they're my reminders, you know? So I, I evolved to the time in my life where there's not one on my refrigerator at home, but I do have things around my office that me back to humility, um, humbleness, um, service. Um. And, and treating people with mutual respect. Not that I have to remind myself that, but you know, is hard sometimes. Um, especially, you know, as, I don't wanna cry, play the woman card, but, you know, the, there are different rules that, you know, you kind of have to deal with. And, um, I've worked with a lot of different people in my life. Um, one example is I worked for, um, a man who was proud to tell us all that he was a narcissist that he was studied in medical schools because he was so far on the extreme narcissist scale. And so, you know, just sort of seeing those things and, and wanting to be what, you know, what are you saying right now? And, and kind of. Gut checking your own reality, but still treating that person with mutual respect, even though maybe your thoughts don't align. I mean, I think that is one of the hardest things, but one of the blessings of going through that journey learning how to interact with many, many people and finding with the core of service and patient care in mind. I mean, the negotiation skills, the, you know, the strategy skills. They don't teach you that in grad school. They,

Duane Newton 28:39

Safe.

Donna Wolk 28:39

teach you that in any school. I mean, I'm, I constantly read, uh, leadership books, psychology books, statistical books, microbiology books the point where my sister says, I want your Christmas list, but I'm not buying you another damn microbiology book. No more germ books. You know, you can't have any more, um. So I think that also finding lifelong learners, again, I've, I've met amazing people, um, but, and I've met people that to their spot and that's where they are. And they're, they don't find joy in learning. And so, or doing the things that, you know, are, are similar to what I find joyful and rewarding. And so you sort of have to find your tribe, I think, and, um, while you find your tribe. And that's a comfort. You also have to take personal responsibility to deal with others who are not aligned in heart, soul, spirit, and continue to try to care for patients outside that innate, uh, gut reaction. I think one of the hardest things is to keep. All of that in mind, able to weigh your words and make your case, and strategize and negotiate to things. Um, and, and that's a struggle that never ends. It's, you know, and, and you get to the part where you think you're making progress, and then you come across someone who pushes your buttons and you've gotta start all over again with that kind of personality. So looking back, I mean, I just, there's so many opportunities to learn to find your way in the world. And, and just enjoy them. I, I would, I say to people, just enjoy it. Enjoy the journey. You know, I have a sign on my door that says, not to spoil the ending, but it's all gonna turn out okay. I walk past that every day. And that is my mantra. I've gotta go be Dr. Wolk today. I walk in every day thinking it's gonna be a day. Can I, you know, you gotta go be you today, but you at work. The me at work is not, not me. Some, my friends know me, my family knows me. It is the role that I play. And, um, I do that in a genuine, as genuine a fashion as I can, knowing I have to do things that are uncomfortable for me. this, this podcast thing. it, it's uncomfortable, but I think it's important to, to have a shared story that people coming up. the ranks can say, so and so she was scared too. Okay. You know, maybe I'm not, you know, maybe that's not so odd. So I, I kind of feel like that's part of my responsibility right now is to do things and, and applaud your vision to kind of have this stuff happen. I mean, it's really not common in the lab to have somebody be, aware of this like you are and wanting to help and mentor people like you are. So, uh, kudos to you.

Duane Newton 32:09

Well, thanks for that. I, uh, I appreciate it that I think, you know, similar to you. Um. You finding your tribe of people that kind of, you know, have, have the same kind of philosophical approach to life and, and the awareness of what's important, um, and how to navigate through that. You know, the challenges that come up every day, and I think that those. That's why I've done it is because there are people that value that and there are people that wanna learn about that more. And, um, you know, I think what, what you've been talking about is, is perfect as far as all those things that we didn't learn in school. And all the, we, you know, we had a, a tremendous technical and clinical training experience, scientific research, training experience. Um, but you know, how, how we navigate our, you know, our daily interactions and dealing with, you know, the self-proclaimed narcissist, who's proud of that title and, um, and all the other difficult challenges is, is something that, you know, is really, um, it's really hard to figure out. And it sounds like, um, a lot of how you. Have approached things was based on your personal interest and mission and desire to continue to learn and grow and, and show up as the best person you could be. You know? So is was that, uh, was that an internally driven force or did you have role models that you, you saw their approach to things that you said, yeah, that's, I want to do it that way too. Or a combination or what, what was influencing that?

Donna Wolk 34:16

Um. You know, for me, my grandfather had miner's asthma and was in the hospital a lot when I was young, and I saw the value of nurses and doctors and, um, didn't even know about laboratory at that time. Um, and his wife, my grandmother, um, was a very, uh, strong and giving and capable person, and I was looked up to her. um, like she used to, uh, much like, um, some of the other women around here that weren't working in the mines and things like that, they would drive trucks to get people from the rural communities to the city to work in the factories and things like that. And, you know, my grandmother always did those kind of things. So, you know, we always grew up thinking that, you know, women, men, you know. There's a lot of differences among us, but, but we, we could find a way to serve. uh, so that, you know, that came from my parents and my grandparents, um, about that. But I, I think that, um, besides that, you know, I didn't plan on science either. I mean, I was in advanced science in high school, but applied to college as an elementary teacher. I would've been horrible at that. Um, I love kids, but you know, the teaching and the rigor and I mean, I don't know. I just, I would've been terrible at that. Or my other one was music. I was, uh, the drum major at in high school and thought, oh, let's do music. And the other one was, um. Uh, phys ed because, you know, back in my younger days I did all the sports and, um, was, was fairly successful at those. And, and then I, right before I started college, I thought, you know, what's I, flipped through a book of careers is what I did. I went to the guidance counselor and said, you know, hey, I like science, but I didn't know you could help people with it like this and healthcare. And then that's how I got into the medical technology program at, at Penn State. Um, but I was literally flipping through chapters of different careers and what they were, because again, like I was first gen college, so there was nobody, it was heresy that a girl would go to college at that time where I grew up. So, you know, my parents were, were very understanding and supported me there, but I. I the only one in the town that was moving away after high school. And so it was a different time. Um, my family was very supportive and my grandmother, I always looked up to her for the kind of things that she did. So that's, that's kind of how I got into lab medicine or medical technology. And then Penn State had to be a med tech that was part of the microbiology degree. So, I had a lot of courses in that? and, and kind of fell in love with that then, and learned about infectious diseases. And I remember Phil Moore, um, was my med tech instructor, instructor or, or sponsor mentor at Penn State. And then he was one of the driving forces to, when I was thinking of going to get my PhD and, and or medical school like pro and conning those out. Um. was very helpful, uh, to me and kind of helped me, uh, through those thought processes about careers as a PhD versus an md

Duane Newton 38:04

Uh, having people like that is really impactful.

Donna Wolk 38:12

for sure.

Duane Newton 38:12

The, um, and it's interesting to hear you talk about how, um, not only as a woman, just as from where you grew up, how outside the box that in your path has been. Um, but it found, it sounds like you, you, there was always support for that along the way, emotional support that even though you were kind of going your own path, that, that,

Donna Wolk 38:53

I

Duane Newton 38:53

you know, was that true? Well, yeah.

Donna Wolk 38:56

from, but absolutely, it, it was, and I'll, I'll tell you this, the blue collar story, um, you'll indulge me for a moment, but, um, know, I, again, I didn't know that there were certain schools. I mean, I knew Harvard and MIT, that they were like elite schools. My family didn't have the money for anything but a state school. I never aspired to be anything more than a bachelor's degree in my life. But, um, when I finally did get my first job and, uh, I was working, um. Bringing up a molecular pathology, genetic pathology program in partnership with my pathology colleagues. And it, it, at the time, it, there were only like 10 or 11 in the country. And, where I worked wasn't a big powerhouse for molecular diagnostics. Um, on the clinical side, it was on the research side. And, um, I was assigned to bring This program up

Duane Newton 39:57

This is at Arizona.

Donna Wolk 39:58

I went to, yeah, I went to the boss at the time and, and said, and, and got commitments for funding for different parts of this program. And then I, I met with him and, he was talking all around the block and I was in there with the two other female, um, leads, uh, uh, at the university. And I said, you know, I don't, I don't mean to be rude, but I'm getting the feeling you have no intention to fund this program like you said You would. And he's like. Like, you're right. I'm not going to. I'm like, okay, well, you know, thank you for your time. And they're like, I can't believe you ask them that. I'm like, wait, it's my first job. What am I gonna do? I had to decide, do I pretend I never got this job to create this for the organization or? do I figure it out? And I think, you know, that's sort of part of my blue collar upbringing, So to speak. I didn't recognize that at the time. I went back to the same guy and said, okay, I've got the 12th molecular genetic pro uh, pathology program in the country. We're recruiting people from good schools to come here. I wanna start a research program. And he said,

Duane Newton 41:18

this is after you've done all the work, you've done all the, the work, you've gotten the funding, you've created this thing without his help,

Donna Wolk 41:26

Yeah,

Duane Newton 41:27

and now you, you go to him again.

Donna Wolk 41:29

Yeah.

Duane Newton 41:29

how many years later was that?

Donna Wolk 41:31

he said to me, do you remember when I told you that I didn't think you could do the molecular program? Because all of my Harvard and MIT people been trying to bring this program online for years and couldn't get it done. And I told you, you know, you come from a blue collar school in a blue collar state. I, I highly doubt you're gonna be able to pull this off. And I said, yeah, I remember. I mean, that's exactly what motivated me to pull it off. And he goes, well, give you the same answer. You come from a blue collar school. You don't have any real research background. You, you have Penn State and the University of Arizona as your degrees. Okay? You have a pseudo Ivy League Master's in Health Administration. Um, but no, I'm not gonna support you at all and give you research space. I'm not gonna give you research money to get started. And so that really, I said, well, you told me that once before, so kind of proud of my blue collar, uh, scrappiness and know, maybe you better re start rethinking that line of thought about me. And he kind of, he'd always turn his head funny and he'd go, perhaps. And so he didn't stop me. I wasn't, I didn't, I wasn't supported. But to me. I don't, you cannot expect support in your career. You just can't. That's not how the world works. Um, I had a lot of people give me good lessons and kind of watch out for me, uh, but not a solid like mentor. I didn't even know what mentorship was till I was outta grad school. Um, although I did have people who helped me and mentor me, but didn't meet with them regularly, maybe once a year or things like that. Um, a lot of really great people day to day interactions though, but I ne everybody's like, oh, you should ask somebody to be your mentor. I'm like, what? They're busy. They don't, you know, I, I didn't know how to do that. So, um, I think because I didn't have any. Formal structure, that scrappiness and that? do it yourself kind of thing, was good. And it's good until it isn't, because then you have to learn how to ask for help and do it the right way

Duane Newton 43:58

Yeah.

Donna Wolk 43:58

of people together that have skills that are different from yours. So lots of evolution, lots of mistakes in my life. Lots of things worked out and didn't work out, I guess I'd say. I don't really have big regrets. Um, but lots of mistakes for sure.

Duane Newton 44:18

Well, the, I mean, I don't think you've described anything so far that's been a mistake. I think, you know, there's a lot of learning experiences that have come from that and the, you know, Ida,

Donna Wolk 44:31

are. Duane.

Duane Newton 44:32

What's that?

Donna Wolk 44:33

That's what mistakes are.

Duane Newton 44:34

Right? That's right, that's right. The, um, the, you, you said, uh, a couple things that, uh, I have similar experience with. You know, I think one is. Uh, the way I've uh, said it, and I learned it early in my research postdoc, um, is the only one that actually cares about me is me. And, you know, had similar, the, the details are different, but similar kind of, you know, funding is not gonna be provided for you in anymore and you gotta figure out your own way through this. And, um, you know, and just from a, it was a political decision, it had nothing to do with me or,

Donna Wolk 45:24

Yeah,

Duane Newton 45:24

you know, what I was contributing, you know, so that was a, a, you know, within the first semester of my, you know, the first six months of my research postdoc, I had that experience. And, um, and that, um, was a re

Donna Wolk 45:42

into clinical

Duane Newton 45:43

um, I think it ev eventually it did because, you know, I saw kind of how the. The whole world of basic science operated. And, um, that wasn't, it wasn't aligned with who I was as a person, but I didn't realize I couldn't describe it in that way at the time. Um, and I, I also like fast forward to in being, being the boss and being in charge and, you know, having a regular job and all that kind of stuff. And, um, you quickly realize that there aren't people that are in, uh, in your life or in your environment that are interested in looking out for you or mentoring you or helping guide you and not, not the way that, you know, we had kind of built in mentors during our training, um, our training lives. And, and so that whole, that part of the, our experiences is very sim or have been similar in that you get to that point. You have to figure, you feel like you have to figure out things on your own. Um, and similarly, you know, the third part of it is you get to a point where, um, you realize you can't figure it out on your own. You don't have the, the brain power, the, the expertise, the perspective, whatever it is necessary. And you have to be comfortable, um, reaching out to others and, and finding others that can help you, building teams, you know, whatever, whatever shape it takes. So I think those are really, um, those are all really important lessons and I, it's very, it's a very sin, you know, the no one is looking out for you except for you is a very cynical view of life. Um, and I think. Um, that's another reason why, you know, creating the space that, that I have and, and doing that podcast and all the other things that, um, have going on around coaching and professional development is because I wanna show people that there, there actually are people that care about you. And you know, I, I know that your part of your legacy is. Is that same kind of philosophy and you know, the approach that you've taken and the people that you've mentored and the impact that you've had on individuals, much less, you know, populations of people, I think, is that, is that similar kind of thing that, you know, there are people that care. I am one of those people that care, you know, you are one of those people that care. And we need more people like that in our lives, uh, in our communities, in our country. That, uh, 'cause that's how you, that's how you make the world a better place. And that.

Donna Wolk 48:46

sort of an acquired taste. I think, you know, people either get me and my truthfulness and my, um, to the pointiness, um, and my quirkiness, if you will. I mean. Um, or they don't. And, and I, I think that's the other thing is trying to, when I was in graduate school, I together like a hundred dollars to take this Franklin Covey leadership class. 'cause I thought, you know, I don't know anything about leadership. I need to learn. um, they gave us a survey and um, then you had, then you had to talk to them about how true the survey was. And so I had like four or five meetings with these corporate coaches and they kept saying to me, are you sure you like what you do? And I'm like, yeah, I love what I do. Well you don't fit our scientific profile. And I'm like, I'm a scientist. Well we don't know where to place. you. so I kind of learned quickly that, um. And then later on my fellowship, we took a of a creativity index score where, um, you look at the, the bell curve of, you know, sort of hardcore science and, hardcore creativity. you know, I'm sort of in the middle of that, which puts me out of line with my scientific, my true like, brilliant, analytical, scientific minded people, not creative enough to really contribute in. So I, I kind of thought to myself, you gotta chart your own course girl here because you don't fit in a bucket. You, you gotta learn how to speak to the, the super analytical people, but also, you know, from a creativity standpoint, learn how to. Talk strategy and business. That's part of how I got my master's in health administration because I, I couldn't get anything for the laboratory. I was writing in science terms and what made sense for medical care, not speaking the language. So I, I think that's another thing that painfully evident to me that I had a, a major gap in, is that I needed to learn, know, different, different messages for different audiences and, and put really, it's, it's about putting your own ego aside in a way because, you know, you grow up as a kid and you have a decent life. I'm, I'm lucky to have had a decent life. I mean, a lot of people have a lot more challenges than I do. Um, and, but you kind of think, you know, the world is going your way you don't have the opportunity to say, you know. Y what you think is not always the right way or reality and, and just putting that your own sense of self aside for that bigger purpose, whatever that is. Whether you work in medicine or you work in business, or you work in service jobs, I mean, I think that focusing on. part of what you can do gets you through the stress of it. The, the long the sleepless nights of, uh, grad school or COVID pandemic or, you know, kind of keeps you moving towards that goal. part of that Covey course said, define your top 10 values in life, And then you make your decisions based on what they are. You know, my daughter, my family, my friends, my, my job was never even in my top five. But it's there because it's a means to an end it has become a true passion of mine. So I can't, I can't ever say it's just a job. Um, to me it's a calling, um, a vocation, I guess, if you will, that that. I was called to, for whatever reason, put me here, but it allowed me the opportunity to do something I love and get paid for it. So like, that's great.

Duane Newton 53:05

You certainly seem to have found a home at Geisinger that is really aligned with who you are and, and you know, your, your views on, um, you know, having an impact, being able to do. W what you're doing, um, efficiently, um, providing the greatest amount of value and making decisions about the approaches to take based on evidence, clinical and scientific evidence, data driven. And so I'm curious as how in Geisinger as a health system ha has a wonderful reputation on value-based care and, um, population centered, uh, approaches to healthcare. Has that, was that, I don't know the history very well, but, you know, is that something that's developed over time? Um,

Donna Wolk 54:19

As

Duane Newton 54:20

where

Donna Wolk 54:21

I think we've, so that aligns very well with my values, the value-based care, the wellness, the population health. Although they, those weren't even words

Duane Newton 54:30

Yeah.

Donna Wolk 54:30

I started working here. Um, I do have to say the views are my own and not my employer.

Duane Newton 54:36

Yeah.

Donna Wolk 54:37

and so I, think that that is important that you find a home that fits your value system in terms of the organization, but that you also always remember that, um, my mother puts it, my mo my 91 year mom, year old mom puts it a certain way every day. This side of the grass is a good day, Donna. And, uh, and I think, that. That might seem cynical, but It it's really not in that your organization, your family, you know, it's a dynamic and you, you align with certain things and then other things you don't align with. And I think that that is, you have to keep that in mind. You cannot have expectations that, um, that everything will be the same forever. Um, that organization you sign on to at any point of your career will remain the same. That the, I mean, look at the health infrastructure in the United States. We, we all grew up a aligning with surveillance data and public health initiatives that correlated with, um, our laboratory roles. And I think the one thing that people fall into in organizations, whether, whether you align with them or not, is that none of that is permanent. It is a day-to-day thing, like my mom, any day, this side of the grass. So when you go to work every day, look for that alignment. You look for that, uh, you know, sort of future view, And you lock into that knowing that, there's gonna be deviations. You know, there's no organization in this country, although mine and have always loved wherever I've been, I, I feel very lucky to have served those organizations. But it's, it can't be what drives you You know, you can't, you can't trust that that's gonna be there from day to day because people change, leaders change, and yet you have to continue your North Star with or without the organization and, and have a separate part of you that. You use when you make decisions about anything, about any part of of your career track and your, your service role. I don't know if that makes sense or

Duane Newton 57:20

It does and I, I think,

Donna Wolk 57:22

I think, you know, and you see it in, in like more in businesses, I think. Like people switch, switch jobs and they work for one company and they're like, rah, rah, that and then they go someplace else and then it's, yeah, you go and I think, where are you there?

Duane Newton 57:42

yeah.

Donna Wolk 57:42

where's you? Um, and so I've always been very careful about that. I, I do to give credit where credit is due to my organizations. Um, but uh, I don't let myself as a human being, my job role aligns with that. My person is still my person, if that makes. Any weird sense, I, I

Duane Newton 58:08

It does.

Donna Wolk 58:08

I have to have that locus of con of control about my value system And who I, am. And sometimes my truthfulness, to be honest, gets me in trouble wherever I've been. My goal has always been hard, get results. Have your feet in more than one camp. You know, I've learned that if you have a little foot in research or you have a little foot in education, you have a little foot in clinical, then you have allies across a broad swatch of people. in my world, as a, a female in a, a fairly direct female who, I mean to be honest, has been called bossy and, you know, forthright, um, in my life, although I don't see myself that way, but obviously I need some more maybe self-reflection there. Um, but that has always kept. That has given me the, ability to speak truths that other people weren't able to speak, because I can always go someplace else. Like I don't, I don't belong to the organization. And I've always been very thoughtful about where I am. I was a dean in one of the master's programs on the main campus versus the medical college. I always had a little bit of, um, people in every port, so to speak, that I could learn from and get opinions from. And, uh, you know, I, I've been in situations like, you know, my, my male colleagues were getting $12,000 extra year for chairing committees that never met. Whereas my career track was very hard fought and, you know, negotiating for. What I needed. Um, you know, raises are not a given in a university setting. You, every 10 years you get a raise. And I came from an organization that you get cost of living and then I'm, I'm hired by somebody, by a group that says, oh no, maybe a decade from now you'll get a raise. You know, so that finding the, courage to say things and ask for things was also, I think, is hard for men or women, but some people do find it easier 'cause they've, you know, never felt like I deserved it, but I know I needed it and my daughter needed it. So you gotta go outside your comfort zone and negotiate and, um, advocate for your own self, which is not, you know, some, it wasn't my normal state of being, but I would always say, put on your blue collar shirt and go be Dr. Wolk today. You know, whether I felt like it or not, it's survival for me. Mm-hmm.

Duane Newton 1:01:18

those of us that know you. C you, you describe it with a little bit of a, um, you, it has a, it sounds like you're being negative about yourself and being direct and bossy a little bit. But, you know, it's, there's never been, I've never ever felt that there's an ounce of anything, uh, you know, self-centered or selfish or, you know, self-promoting about it. It's about, you know, calling a spade a spade and this is, this is the right thing to do and this is why. And, uh, I think that's a tremendous gift to be able to have that clarity, to see it, and to have the courage to say it. And, um, and that's, uh, why I like you.

Donna Wolk 1:02:17

It does make you a target sometimes and, oh gosh. I've had to, I've had to, I've had to learn over the years how to, how to phrase things and. Uh, very different ways, like, than what's in my head, because what's in my head you know, probably something that I don't always wanna say out loud. Um, and know, like that TV character, did I just say that kind of thing? So, uh, you know, that's why I do a lot of reading, polishing myself up. I'm, I'm just a simple person. I'm just a simple microbiologist who leads a very complicated life. And, um, you know, the, the first and foremost thing for me is being a parent. Um, being a friend and a partner, and, uh, a good daughter and, um, all a good member of society. And, um, I think we're all challenged right now to try to find. Our bigger place, our bigger space, um, whether we're busy and have work, but know we need to do something to stand up for health and vaccines and, and things that we need to do, don't always know how to do them.

Duane Newton 1:03:42

so y- you, you shared a lot of really wonderful information and, and, um, these really personal stories that influenced you. You, you talked about this experience in Hawaii as a graduate student where, you know, your mentor's spouse was taking care of him the whole time and, and you realized you didn't have a person like that in your life, and you had to be self-sufficient and, and identify, you know, what was important to you. And, and those priorities focused and drove you in a certain way. And you're, you know, coming from a, a modest, rural, small town upbringing in Pennsylvania influenced your decision to, you know, focus on Mayo as, as a target for your fellowship program. And, you know, you put all your eggs in that basket and it, and it turned out. And, and that kind of in- wanting to y- maintain that small town vibe and feel about, you know, the places that you, you ended up was important to you. So I'd be interested now with the benefit of the retrospectoscope to be able to go back and, you know, look in time. Not that you would change anything, because I don't think that's a fair, um, position to, you know, to ask somebody to be in. But, you know, having gone through those experiences and, and, and lived through them and gotten to where you are, what would you go back and tell y- y- that younger version of yourself? You know, the younger version, you know, your graduate student version of, of yourself in Hawaii or the, the soon to be postdoc version of yourself in Rochester in... A- are there some things that you might say to, to ease your thought process or comfort or, you know-

Donna Wolk 1:05:51

Yeah, I-

Duane Newton 1:05:51

knowledge that you would like to share with that version of yourself?

Donna Wolk 1:05:56

Well, it's a, it's a great reflection, um, to think about. And- You know, from that point of view, I mean, part of it I think comes from being an o- the eldest child, um, and part of it comes from the fact that I was e- an enormously tall child, 5'4" in like third or fourth grade. And so, you know, I wasn't always this wide, but I always was very tall. And you know, people kind of expect things from you, so if, you know, I kind of had that all my life where people were, you know, kinda looking to me for answers or protection. I mean, I remember sort of sticking up for my smaller, more frail friends in even in elementary school. So at the time I was in graduate school and, and really going through Mayo, I, I think that I had learned by then to just, you know, trust myself and, um, listen to my intuition and, and be comfortably uncomfortable with my decisions. Because, you know, it, it's really easy, especially as a single parent, to y- you know, second-guess yourself. And you really have to fight that all the time. And when I say fight it, I don't mean don't feel it.

Duane Newton 1:07:30

Mm-hmm.

Donna Wolk 1:07:31

I mean have the feeling, second-guess yourself, self-reflect, am I doing the right thing? You know, I, I love my Adam Grant's book, Think Again, where, um, you are in the moment making the decision best you can, uh, and then you put it aside. I- I think that's the concept here that, that drove me, is that, okay, I do have this vulnerability. I don't have a big infrastructure. I mean, uh, I've always have a famous c- not a famous quote, but a f- quote in my family that they'll hear me say, you know, "Family is a cir- uh, is a circle of friends who love you." And I always, as a single mom, I, I did have to remind myself that over and over. That's probably single parenthood and financial stability during grad school was my biggest vulnerability and my biggest stress. So awareness of the fact that my infrastructure was small at the time, and then also knowing what I could handle, thinking about what I could handle. Mayo's not as small as the town I grew up in, or Rochester, Minnesota is not. It's, it's big compared to where I grew up, but it did have sort of a, a, a rural and an urban feel, and I felt I could raise my child there. But oh my goodness, that was a, you know, big risk to just... You're a single parent. Your choices are stay and do a postdoc and get paid almost nothing, or take a chance on one program and, you know, trust the universe that things will work out. I think that's a big piece of what I would tell myself back then, is that, you know, things that I, I continue to tell my daughter. You make good decisions, trust yourself, keep moving forward, and if you're, if it doesn't work out, then maybe it's meant to be something else. Maybe you will find a path. And I think for people who are struggling with decisions, thinking that that final decision is, is fatal or has to be flawless, or that you can't back up the car and go a different direction, is what paralyzes people. And, you know, I, I, I sort of credit that to my father. He, he was- A fearless man who barely knew how to read and, and founded a business. And he always, you know, would tell us, "You wanna do it? You just, you just go do it." And so, right, he was kind of, you know, that inspiration for me. Also because people sort of trusted me 'cause I was this big giant. Um, and, uh, you know, so that, that's what I would tell myself, "Just keep trusting yourself." I actually have to keep doing that today. That doesn't go away just because you're, you have a career. In f- in fact, as you get closer to retirement, it gets super scary again. You know, you're opening up a new chapter of your life. You're starting a new story. You build your whole career gathering information, learning skills. And then if you're gonna, if you're going to be a good mentor and do succession planning, you start having to give that stuff away. You almost have to have a trajectory of making yourself irrelevant over time so that you can retire in peace knowing everything's in good hands. And, and that's, you know, that's really kind of the part where I am now.

Duane Newton 1:11:27

The, the... It's amazing to me to hear you talk about the trust in yourself that you had at such an early part of your career and, and life in just as a person. And, um, that, that's something that I have... I'm just now feeling like I'm coming into more of that, you know, that, that believing in that intuition and the, that gut, the gut feelings and, and having the belief in myself to be able to do that. Um, i- it's taken a- It's a

Donna Wolk 1:12:13

mind game, though.

Duane Newton 1:12:14

Yeah. Like,

Donna Wolk 1:12:14

it's still scary.

Duane Newton 1:12:15

Ri- I know. It, yeah.

Donna Wolk 1:12:17

You just have to

Duane Newton 1:12:17

tell yourself. But having the awareness, right. But ha- Yeah having the awareness, uh, of it, you know, that, that that is something to listen to, you know. Believing it is the other part, you know, but the first part is that, that, that, uh, that's something that you can listen to. And I love the analogy, and I've used this, the exact same one, um, you know, that a, a decision is not... A decision you make is not a one-way street. You can always turn around and go back. And I f- that took me a long time to figure out too, that I, I thought when I was in high school and college, you know, the major that I was gonna decide- You know, I ha- it had to be perfect, and the decisions that I was gonna make and the direction that I was gonna go, I couldn't make any mistakes. And, um, I, I never really felt that freedom to make mistakes and to change, and I- that's, that's a, a... That was difficult. And it reminds me too of, uh, something else that, that came up in the information that you shared with me. You know, I was, I was looking at the slide deck you shared th- that you presented at ASM when you got the, the BD Clinical Micro Award several years ago, and one of the, the books that you referenced in that presentation was The Four Agreements, and that w- that was one that was also, it's been pivotal for me as well. And the, if people haven't read it, The Four Agreements, um, I have it right here. Don Miguel Ru- whoops. Don Miguel Ruiz is the author, and the four agreements that he talks about, be impeccable with your word, don't take anything personally, don't make assumptions, and always do your best. And it's, it's really simple in so many ways, but also really, really hard in, in others. It is. And, you know, the doing your best part I think is kind of the, you know, acknowledging that what you're doing is the best that you can do is, is part of it, but always trying to, to put that best version out there. Um, I think that's the thing that I get from you as you're talking. You know, you're, you're putting the best version of yourself out there, and y- it, it feels to me when you talk that you acknowledge that you're doing your best. That this is the best

Donna Wolk 1:15:14

that I can do. Yeah, and that, I think that's the easiest one for me as a first child, a firstborn, a big, tall kid, um- Uh, you know, maybe more type A in my youth than I am now for sure because I think, uh, adulthood and growing up and, uh, your experiences in life kinda make you aware that that is not a healthy place to be all of the time. Mm-hmm. That's the easiest one for me. Uh,

Duane Newton 1:15:44

but- What's the

Donna Wolk 1:15:44

hardest

Duane Newton 1:15:45

one for you?

Donna Wolk 1:15:45

Um, well, I wanna just back up one second and say that- Mm-hmm w- when I was a single parent in grad school, th- that's when that one became hard. Uh, as a parent it just becomes hard, and you have to... Then you have to say, "Okay, but my best is different on any given day."

Duane Newton 1:16:05

Mm-hmm.

Donna Wolk 1:16:05

And, and I'm comfortable and I'm content as long as I give my best that day. If my hair is washed when I'm on my way to class- and that's the best I could do that day- then that's the best I could do that day. I, you know, I actually, uh, met another colleague, uh, Beth Marlowe, in graduate school, you know, on one of those days, and I'm like-

Duane Newton 1:16:31

Where your best wasn't, like,

Donna Wolk 1:16:33

the best

Duane Newton 1:16:33

Just

Donna Wolk 1:16:34

my best wasn't all that great, you know? But, um, but anyway, m- the hardest one I think for me as a scientist, um, I've always been a, a truthful person. That was drilled in. That one was... That's, that's easy. Um, the hardest one for me is, I think, don't make assumptions because we are groomed in a scientific community from the day we hit college, and the expectations that you hold for yourself if you are sort of on the science track and you are always doing your best, then you start to believe that that's the world and that your decisions are good and sound. But early on you h- I had to learn, like... And when I read the book I went, "Oh, yeah, uh, my decisions aren't great for everyone." So when people would come to me for counsel- I was, in my earlier years, quicker to share, "Well, if it were me, I would do this." And now I don't say those things anymore because it's not me, and I have to trust people that I know and love and work with to make the best decisions they are making for themselves on whatever their best looks like that day. And I think that's really when my, uh, career changed to a way of more listening, more... less talking, more listening. I, I'm a, I'm a verbal learner, um, so a, a, a, and a verbal thinker. So words just sort of come out of my mouth, and I, and my mind has to tell myself, "Stop talking now. Stop talking now. Stop talking now." Um, so that was probably m- the biggest one for me to overcome. And, you know, I, I have that book, uh, front cover printed out on my door so that I see it first thing every morning, and on my file cabinet so that I see it during the day. Uh, so it, it really has, um, changed me. Uh, the author is a physician and a shaman, and that juxtaposition of different ways of thinking about the world, uh, when I first read it, uh, it was not all science and it made me a little uncomfortable. Um, but, uh, you know, I've since learned that's, that's the best place to be and to learn. As a lifelong learner, you have to be uncomfortable or y- or you, you stop learning.

Duane Newton 1:19:27

But it also, he tracks with y- you talked earlier in our conversation about your experience in your FranklinCovey-

Donna Wolk 1:19:39

Oh, yeah

Duane Newton 1:19:39

leadership and- and, like, the scientist and creative person, you're kind of in the middle, and they didn't know where to put you. And so- Yeah he's kind of, he, he kind of, uh, fits that bill, too. So it- Yeah it makes sense that that's attractive to you.

Donna Wolk 1:19:53

I had to not take that personally, Duane, which is the other one.

Duane Newton 1:19:56

Yeah, I know

Donna Wolk 1:19:57

that- Don't take thi- I ha- when they're telling me, "Are you sure you, like, you ta- are you sure you wanna be a scientist?" Um, I, I'm not taking that personally, you know? So it's hard- I think the- not to take things personally, but, well, the biggest one I struggle with is not to make assumptions.

Duane Newton 1:20:12

Well, I think th- those two middle ones for me, um, as, as an oldest child, I, I... it resonates with me abo- about, you know, being impeccable to your word and, and doing your best, and kind of, part of it was the expectations that were put on me. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and that making assumptions and, and- Definitely. You know, I think the, the one that is the hardest is not taking things personally, because I, I just, for whatever reason, it, it is always what I put out there, what I do, you know, I invest so much in- Mm-hmm that, you know, any, any outcome, good or bad, is a reflection of me. That's how I- Yeah would, that's how I t- would take it, and it's taken a while.

Donna Wolk 1:21:02

And, and I mean, it's not like my siblings are liars or don't do their best. They're outstanding people. I mean, they're exactly like me except, for whatever reason, you know, I set those expectations- For yourself. Yeah too high for myself. And, and again, in grad school, I, I'm, I may have said this or maybe I didn't, but I had to continually tell myself, "Treat yourself half as good as you treat other people, and that'll be an improvement for you." So like those constant things that I had to remind myself to give myself some grace, because up until that point, I, I really didn't know how to give myself grace. So I really tried to, I really try to pass that on to my chi- children, my, my people that I work with and... Because there's a lot of scientists in that bucket of, you know, meticulous type A kind of people. Um, nothing wrong with that. That's great- Mm-hmm for us being scientists, but, you know, learning how to be i- in love with yourself, I think, is, is an important part of a process there.

Duane Newton 1:22:26

This has been really wonderful, Donna, and, and I, I... That, those sentiments, th- that's why I love talking with you is because that, the duality of, you know, the analytical, scientific, technical person and the thoughtful, introspective, personable world thinker. It r- like, creative, uh, all the stuff that kind of, uh... It's not that it conflicts, but it's just, it's a, it's a wonderful combination of attributes that, uh, I really admire, and it, your story is just really, really amazing and, uh, unique.

Donna Wolk 1:23:23

What- You know? What you see is what you get.

Duane Newton 1:23:28

Well, I appreciate what I see and what you've given- And, uh, I look forward to seeing what the next chapters for you look like too.

Donna Wolk 1:23:41

Me too. Thanks, Duane. Appreciate your time so much, and appreciate having me on, on your podcast.

Duane Newton 1:23:48

Well, thank you very much, Donna.

Donna Wolk 1:23:52

So long.

Duane Newton 1:24:02

If you're enjoying Navigating Your Path, please be sure to like or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to directly connect with me, you can reach out via my podcast email, which is listed in the description of this episode. It also contains the links to the podcast website and YouTube channel where you can check out more of my content. Feel free to reach out if you'd like to share any comments or even make suggestions about future topics to discuss. I'd also love to hear from you if you have suggestions for people for me to interview or even if you'd like to be interviewed by me. You can also contact me if you'd like to learn more about what it is that I do as a professional development coach. I look forward to having you join me next time. Take good care.