Duane Newton 0:07

Welcome to Navigating Your Path. I'm your host, Duane Newton. In today's episode, I was thrilled to be able to talk with Dr. Ken Gavina, who's the medical director of clinical micro and serology at Eskenazi Health, as well as an assistant professor of clinical pathology and lab medicine at the Indiana University School of Medicine in Indianapolis. As a lab director who's relatively early in his career, it was really great to hear Ken's perspectives on how he chooses to fill his plate, balancing the things that he wants to accomplish both personally and professionally. He also shared the symmetry between his role as a track and field coach, which fueled his passion for teaching and mentoring students in science. I really loved as well his recognition of the common trait he identified in his favorite mentors. I didn't enjoy as much his recounting of our first meeting. It was really funny, but a little embarrassing for me. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Ken Gavina. Thanks, Ken, for joining. I, I really appreciate you taking the time. Um, you're, you're an old pro at the podcasting game, um, as a, you know, a famous podcast host in our, in our community, and I'm, I'm early in this, so thanks for your patience with me if I don't do a, as good a job as you do in this.

Ken Gavina 1:46

Oh, Duane, I, I think famous is a subjective term. And probably not one I would use for myself, but, uh, I'm, I'm absolutely thrilled. Uh, thank you for having me on today.

Duane Newton 1:55

Well, I appreciate it. And, um, I think, you know, we've known each other probably somewhere in the neighborhood of about five years or so I think. Um, and, you know, I've I think you're awesome. Y- I think we've, we've formed a really good connection and, um, and I've got to s- gotten to see you grow and develop in your career and learned a little bit about, you know, where you came from and your background and how, how you've gotten to this point. And I think it's, it's a really interesting story. I think you've experienced a lot of things that people, um, that people would be really interested in learning about. And, um, I'd love to hear a little bit more if you could share, you know, some, some of your origin story, particularly as it pertains to, you know, the, this, the decisions to ultimately get into the clinical lab. I know y- you know, you- I did not wear my USA Hockey jersey today, um-

Ken Gavina 3:10

Thank you

Duane Newton 3:10

but, uh

Ken Gavina 3:12

That wound's still fresh.

Duane Newton 3:15

You're from Canada. And, uh, so tell me a little bit about where you f- where you're from and, and how you got into the science, and start from there.

Ken Gavina 3:25

Yeah, for sure. So yeah, Duane, we've known each other for, yeah, you're right, about, about five years now. Um, we've spoken kind of informally before, but I guess I wanna share a quick story, and if it's not appropriate at all, Duane, you can totally edit this part out. But, uh, we first met and actually spoke in person, it was at the, uh, clinical virology symposium, and I think it was in West Palm Beach in Florida. Um, that would've been, yeah, 2021 or around that time. And, uh, I'd been introduced to you beforehand by Ryan and I, I knew about you because you, you'd obviously been a, a clinical microbiology director for quite some time, and then you were, uh, with Bio-Rad at the time. Um, you know, Duane Newton is a, is a big name in the field of clinical microbiology. As a, an young, naive trainee, um, coming in as a first-year CPEP fellow, and, uh-

Duane Newton 4:16

Obviously you didn't know any better.

Ken Gavina 4:21

But that, that year, uh, I'd won a, uh, a travel award for the meeting. So I'd, I'd won a, uh, PASCV travel award, and after the awards session, um, I'd, I'd ran to the bathroom because I, I really had to, you know, hold it in. And, you know, there I am standing at the urinal and somebody approaches me from behind as I'm at the urinal to say, "Congratulations." And I'm just like, "Ah, thank you." When I turned around I had no idea who it was, and sure enough, that was my introduction to Duane Newton, was him congratulating me while I was at the urinal.

Duane Newton 4:55

That's, uh, great timing on my part. But, uh- Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, I'm glad I have editorial license for whether or not to include that. We'll have to

Ken Gavina 5:06

see. You can I, I, I trust your discretion- but that memory's forever photographically etched, and I will never remember how, I will never forget how we, uh, how we first met. But you're absolutely right. Uh, I am, I am from Canada originally. Um, so I, I grew up in this make-believe city called Winnipeg, Manitoba, which is just north of North Dakota. Um, I did my undergraduate training at the University of Winnipeg. I did a double major in biochemistry and microbiology. Um, at that point in time I always kinda knew I wanted to do something with micro in the lab. I was very privileged to do a undergraduate research project at the National Microbiology Laboratory in Canada. So that's really the only BSL-4 level laboratory that we have in Canada. And I, I worked under, um- The late Dr. Michael Mulvey, um, and we worked on, um, nosocomial and antimicrobial resistance. So we were, we were looking at, uh, the surveillance of, uh, carbapenem resistance at the time. So this was, you know, 2009 through 2013. So it was very, um, still fairly early on when it's, it's not quite as, um, you know, renowned as it, as it is today. Um, and that kinda led me onto the path of clinical microbiology and laboratory diagnostics. So with that in mind, I did my PhD, uh, at the University of Alberta under, uh, my great mentor and now friend, uh, Dr. Stephanie Yano. Uh, I worked on, uh, parasitology. So I'm, I'm classically trained as a parasitologist. We, we worked on malaria. Uh, I worked on molecular diagnostic development, um, particularly in low resource settings. So we were interested in looking at the clinical outcomes of malaria in pregnancy, and we wanted to see if we could implement, uh, you know, novel molecular diagnostics to improve, uh, maternal and neonatal outcomes. So that, that was kind of the next step in my, my educational career. And at the time, I, I, I really didn't have any intention of moving to the United States, um, for a, a CPEP fellowship. I, I was fairly driven to stay within Canada, and people may not be aware of this, but the Canadian s- uh, society has an equivalent program as well for clinical microbiology training. However, unfortunately, there's only three institutions, um, in the country that offer it, University of Alberta, University of Manitoba, and University of Toronto. And similar, you know... It, it's, it's a competitive program to get into here, CPEP in the United States with maybe anywhere between 14 to 18 spots per year. Well, in Canada, you, you're lucky if there's three spots per year. So you can imagine the magnitude of difficulty it would be to get into the program. And, uh, I, I was-- I've been close. I've interviewed multiple times. I've, I've finished near as a top candidate but never really quite got the, the invitation to be a fellow. So it was kind of at the cusp of my last year in my PhD when I, I, I started to, you know, think of like, "I'm not sure if this is going to be a realistic possibility for me." Um, I ended up pivoting into, uh, industry for a little bit. So I, I worked one year in industry for a private startup group where we worked on, again, on molecular diagnostic development. In a point of care setting. Um, I learned a lot of really cool things from like a, a GMP standpoint and, and, and working in like the ISO standards and procedures and clin- good clinical practice, um, which is really instrumental to a lot of the knowledge I have today into, into assay development. Um, but I really missed the aspect of being part of like a clinical team and, and seeing the impact, um, on patients and populations. So I, I transitioned to a different post-doctoral fellowship, um, where it was a molecular diagnostic post-doctoral fellowship out of McMaster University, um, with a brilliant researcher and a physician, uh, Dr. Marek Smieja, um, out of, um, McMaster and St. Joseph's Healthcare. I worked with a great team there, Dr. David Buehler and Sylvia Chong, and several others. I can just go on naming them. But, um, we worked on a lot of really cool things. I was working on transplant viruses at the time for viral load detection and viral load monitoring, and then COVID hit. Um, so you know, everything kind of went to an immediate halt and pause. Uh, everything was all hands on deck for bringing up high throughput testing for SARS-CoV-2 at the time. So I was, I was heavily involved in automation and bringing on high throughput testing for SARS-CoV-2 at St. Joseph's Healthcare. We worked together with Sha- Shared Health Labs in, in Toronto. Um, and it, it really kind of introduced me to the world of, you know, molecular diagnostics within the clinical microbiology and virology laboratory. And I was... You know, it kind of rekindled my passion and, and drive to want to try and get back into it. So at the time, my, my partner, she en- she encouraged me to apply to, um, the US programs and just see what happens, you know? I mean, if, if we get an offer and interview, we'll, we'll face that as it comes. And I was very fortunate to receive, um, multiple interviews and offers and that I ultimately landed with, um, Indiana University where I, I am now to this day. Um, you know, uh, I think having served on the ASM CPEP, CPEP subcommittee, I think it's fair to say that every one of these institutions is qualified to be able to provide you with the education that you need to get where you want to be, and ultimately that's gonna be that ABMM certification and into a role where you're using your training and certification for, for your career, whether that be in academia, um, industry or as a clinical laboratory director or even in public health. Um, so with that in mind, I, I ended up choosing IU solely based on, this is gonna sound ridiculous, but vibes. Um, and what I mean by that is the, the program director, Dr. Ryan Rolich, I, I just had an amazing interaction with him, and I knew that I think for me to have the most success in a program, I needed to find a mentor and a program director who I would be able to get along with. There would be-- There's some kinda chemistry there. Um, I, I knew for a fact that he would facilitate my learning and, and be an absolute support to me. Um, and I, you know, started my CPEP fellowship at IU. I thought that the plan was always gonna be, "Yep, I'll finish my two years of fellowship in Indiana, and I'll, I'll go back to Canada. It'll be great." And there was an opportunity for me to, uh, join the team as an attending. Um, so I, I applied just, again, you know, facing the same kind of, uh, mindset, like, well, if it, if I get an offer, we'll face that problem or that challenge or that opportunity, um, as it comes up. And I was fortunate enough to get an offer in my first year of CPEP fellowship for a position to stay on, and I've been in Indiana ever since. So I started my role as a medical director for, um, the Division of Clinical Microbiology and Serology here at Eskenazi Health. I also serve as, uh, an assistant professor, um, at the Indiana University School of Medicine, and I'm involved in various other things through, um, IU Health as well as other professional societies. Um, and I've been doing that since.

Duane Newton 12:32

Thanks for your, uh, providing that history. It's really interesting to hear how you, you, uh, you also faced, as most of us do, situations where you have to make a decision, you're pivoting. Um, you know, you try something, and it leads you down a path, uh, that you, you didn't really expect. Um, I think that's-- those are great, uh, those are great stories of how those challenges or potentially, you know, obstacles have turned, turned into opportunities. And so I mean, that, those are great, um, great stories to share for people to be able to hear. I think one of the things that I, that I know from your background, there's a couple of things that I wanted to, to go maybe back a little bit more. You know, I know you have, um, certification as a medical technologist and, and, uh, microbiologist through ASCP. And can-- Where, where does that fit in with your background? And, and, um, what kind of-- Did you, did you actually have experience working in a clinical lab as a bench technologist too?

Ken Gavina 13:50

No. So there, that, thank you for bringing that up. There's actually a, um, an interesting reason, I guess, from my perspective of why I chose to pursue my ASCP certification and eventually my SM, so like my specialist in microbiology. Um, one thing I wanna quickly tangent to is that, um, I think a lot of people who want to go into the CPEP route assume that, you know, you finish your doctorate or your PhD and then you go straight into fellowship. So, um, that was very much not the case for me. Um, I, I came in relative to some of my peers in my cohort much later, um, in my career training because I, uh, at that time, um, from where I graduated from my PhD, I've already finished a year of work followed by a year of postdoctoral fellowship that I already completed, followed by another year of work. So I was, you know, three and a half years removed from my doctorate by the time I got, um, accepted into a CPEP fellowship, and I, that's, it's something I like to share with everybody because I think, you know, resiliency is, is a really key characteristic and feature to have when you want to apply for something that's very competitive and very hard, and I, I think that there's always gonna be multiple ways to get there. And to your point, having that ASCP certification or that bench-level experience in a clinical laboratory is definitely beneficial to getting into a CPEP fellowship. But I never, I never had my ASCP certification prior to joining my CPEP fellowship. I actually completed my certification during fellowship. Hmm. And part of that reason was, um, during my training, we obviously do our, uh, bench rotations through the laboratory. We go through bloods, wounds, sterile, non-sterile, respiratory, all of them. But you're only there for a couple days, maybe a couple weeks at a time. Hmm. And one thing that I felt I thought I was missing, um, coming into the program was kind of that fundamental understanding of how the bench works. Not from a pathologist, not from a director perspective, but from a tech's perspective. And I spent a lot of my time during fellowship on like the off hours going back to the bench and trying to learn more why they do things the way they do, what's their mindset, and I, I really wanted to have that certification for, for two reasons. One, I think is to build kind of a connection with the laboratory with wherever I ended up working afterwards. Because I think a lot of the time is sometimes you'll have a director who comes into a laboratory, um, who's never worked the bench or, you know, and there's, there's kind of a disconnect there. So you, you come to yourself in a situation where- You might be giving, um, a directive or writing up a protocol or procedure in the laboratory as the, as the clinical laboratory medical director without knowing how that's gonna work in terms of workflows or operationally at the bench level. And I try to immerse myself in that as much as I can. Um, and I also wanted to show that with the certification that I, you know, even though I didn't traditionally go through an MLS program in school and, and work the bench, that I respect the credential that's associated with. I think there's a lot of hard work that goes involved. So I took the alternate pathway with work experience in the clinical laboratory, plus an advanced degree to be able to challenge the exam. And then for me, naturally, it was a good kind of test of knowledge because, you know, uh, I think we're as, as lab directors nowadays, like, we're expected to know everything. Um, we're not expected to be able to recall everything off the spot, but eventually to find that answer. But you should have the, you know, the broad knowledge of everything that encompasses within the, the clinical laboratory that you're overseeing and you're directive of. And I think the first step to that was having that ASCP certification. So I started with the M. I challenged that at the end of my first year. Um, and then partway through my second year of fellowship, I, I challenged the specialty in microbiology as well, um, to kind of get full base, uh, coverage of knowledge gaps of everything I would need to know if I was working the bench in the lab. And it helps, too, because now, you know, there, there are times where if I'm signed off on proficiencies for stuff at my work and in a pinch you need me to go work something up, I can go do it.

Duane Newton 18:19

I think that's a very, um, mature and insightful perspective to have taken at such an early stage in your career to kind of have that-- have the wherewithal to recognize the value of that kind of perspective. Um, anticipating, you know, your role as a leader. And I think that that's-- it fits with how I've, um, how I've tried to describe our roles as lab directors to others. Uh, I use analogies like we're the captain of the ship, or we're the conductor of the orchestra. You know, we're not the ones that are, you know, running the engine room or running the plumbing, um, but we have to know how it works, and we know-- we have to know the issues and the challenges and how to connect and communicate with the people that are in there. You know, we have to know when the right time for the violins to come in are, you know. And... But we're setting the direction that the group is taking, and to be able to have- Um, that to be able to have the right kinds of conversations and understand what, you know, the challenges, operational challenges that people are dealing with at the bench requires that kind of perspective. And, and I think that is, that's a super critical thing to have done. Um, I-- mine was a little bit different. I got it in through five years of teaching clinical microlab as a graduate student, and, you know, so that it wasn't necessarily the operational aspects of working at a bench in a, in a hospital lab, but it was the microbiology and the science behind it to be able to have those kinds of conversations. And I think as I think back on my time a-as a fellow, I was more focused on how they were getting through the process because the microbiology was second nature, but it was still a similar kind of thing. You're, you're trying to understand, you know, what are they doing and how are they doing it, and why are they doing it in this way? And I think, you know, I totally agree that that provide-- that informs you and, and helps your decision-making, and I think it also gives you some credibility with the staff because they, they know that you understand what you're talking about. So I think that's, that's an important... That's not something that we learned in our fellowships. You, you, you kind of, you see it or maybe it was modeled to you, and I think it, it also kind of tangentially relates to some other things that I know about your, um, your background. I know, you know, you did a lot of teaching as an undergrad student. I know that you had a lot of folks that you mentored along the way when you, you know, starting, I think, in graduate school, uh, in- Yeah, that's right in different research projects and then, you know, now obviously, uh, running, you know, having fellows and running a CPEP program. And so this teaching and mentoring aspect of your life, where, you know, where did that come about and what, what inspired you to start doing that? And, and what-- m- can you identify some lessons that you learned along the way that, that you've taken, uh, taken with you now as a role-- in your role as a director and a, and a leader and a mentor that, you know, started from that early age?

Ken Gavina 22:20

Yeah. No, that's, that's a bit of a loaded question, but, um-

Duane Newton 22:25

We'll take it in parts. So you're like, how, how did you get started in teaching?

Ken Gavina 22:28

Yeah, I, I, I started You're right. So I started in undergraduate, um, where I was a laboratory instructor and a TA for some classes, mostly, um, microbiology. Again, you're, you're gonna start to see a theme here that I kind of figured out early on, I knew where I wanted to be. And I'll be perfectly honest, when I, when I started in undergrad, at the time, my motive for teaching was I, I needed a paycheck. I was poor. So this, this was a, this was a job for me at the time. But I discovered how much I enjoyed, you know, kinda seeing the light bulb moment with the, the students when they, they got something figured out. And, um, eventually, uh, it ended up changing my mindset a little bit to not so much that, like, I It's not just them understanding the content or material, but it's for something that, you know, a subject that I find exciting, uh, or that I'm passionate about. And I'm not naive. I'm not trying to make everybody in the laboratory in an undergraduate course feel as passionate as I am about microbiology. I know some people are just there because they need that course or they need to pass that course- Mm-hmm for the degree. But even just the glimmering moment of them being like, "Huh, that's pretty cool," or like, "Wow, I get it," that to me was more than satisfactory. And I, I think I've always kind of had a mentorship kind of role. So I also, like, coached track and field, um, through early college and late high school as well, um, which was something that I was passionate about at the time. And I didn't really know why I enjoyed it as much, but I think it's because I was sharing my passion with others.

Duane Newton 24:08

Mm-hmm.

Ken Gavina 24:09

Um, and it wasn't until much later that I realized that that was the underlying reason of why I was teaching and mentoring, um, was because I enjoyed sharing the things that I'm excited about with people who were potentially excited about it. So it continued on in grad school, where I served as a sessional instructor for, um, I think the course was Introduction to Medical Microbiology, and it was intended for, um, nursing students and other, um, clinician and patient-facing providers. Um, I really enjoyed that aspect. Um, but where I think I got the most, like, personal, um, pleasure and joy from was the more one-on-one or intimate, um, teaching and mentoring style. So we had- international students as well as undergraduate students that rotated through our, uh, graduate school laboratory and worked on different projects. So as the, you know, kind of the resident grad student in my laboratory, I was in charge of helping them with experimental design and teaching them some of the basics of like what is PCR? How does it work? Mm-hmm. What's the appropriate workflow, and why are we doing it this way? And I found that I got more joy from that because I was more involved. Like you're It, it wasn't superficial teaching at that point. Like, I got to know the person as more than just a student

Duane Newton 25:33

learner. You're working one-on-one with people.

Ken Gavina 25:34

Yeah, exactly. You interact with them daily and, and I think I, I enjoyed fostering that relationship with them. Um, and it, it kinda just continued on even when I was working as, uh, in, in industry when we had, you know, engineering students that would rotate through our, our company or, um, new employees. Kind of that working relationship, um, was kinda what drove me from a, from a mentoring and a, a teaching perspective. And even now as a, as a director and as a mentor for fellows and residents, I, I take that same kind of approach as building a relationship and, um, trying to learn more about them more as a student, more than just the student I should say. But a couple of key things that I picked up later on as I was teaching, and again it comes to the same realization that not everyone's gonna be as passionate about your subject, um, as you are, was that engagement was everything. Um, I, I gave a talk last month in Jacksonville where I, I talked about the It's called the Kirkpatrick Model, which is a system that's used to evaluate different educational and teaching methods, and there's four levels to the system on how you evaluate teaching and learning, and the first level is engagement and enjoyment. And I think that if you lose them there, it's gonna be very hard for them to learn and for them to be successful if you can't even get your, your foundation correct. So my first and foremost kind of mantra I guess is that, um, it should either be educational or entertaining, and it needs to be one or the other, and if it's both, that's a slam dunk because, uh, trying to keep the learners engaged in something that they n- you know, very well may hate, they might have no passion or desire, it's a requirement for them, but if you can keep them engaged, you have a shot of them wanting to learn, and I think that's the big thing too is because for a learner to be successful, they need to be intrinsically motivated. They can ve- a lot of the time extrinsic motivation is, is, is cheap. It's kind of fleeting, right? It works in that moment, but, you know, you're inspired in the classroom, and all of a sudden you go home, and it's like, "Ah, I don't wanna do this anymore. I'm, I'm okay." Um, so for me from a teaching perspective with residents when I do lectures or even with the medical laboratory students I try to keep it fun. Um, you know, I, I, I throw in some memes every now and then and make them content related to micro. I do a lot of, um, questions and engagement. Like, I like to take advantage of using, um, you know, like Kahoot! or even, uh, uh, Quizzo or Slido, kind of multiple choice questions and get them involved. I- uh, the last thing I wanna do is just talk at them for- Mm-hmm 45 minutes and be very, um, non-personable. So tho- those are some of the things that I learned later on and, um, uh, from a, from a broad teaching perspective to, like, a larger classroom. But, and then even on the one-on-ones, I've, I've kind of shown to be... I think if I, I kinda let my genuine passion and, like, my nerdiness kinda shine through, they're, they're receptive to that. Like, people who are learning are, are not, they're not naive when someone's, like, faking enthusiasm or things like that. They can- Mm-hmm they can tell when it's disingenuous. So when I'm being genuinely excited and nerdy about it, I have really nothing to be embarrassed about because it's something that I truly love. And, and they pick up on that, and that kind of energy's infectious. Um, so I find that I've, I've had great success with being personable and, you know, trying to share that joy with, um, our fellows and residents that, you know, some of them have, um, really turned their, uh, their opinion around on micro and, like, we've started doing projects together in their... Like, where they came in as a PJ1, PGY1 being like, "Eh, whatever. I'm-

Duane Newton 29:28

Mm-hmm

Ken Gavina 29:28

I'm purely gonna be, like, going into, like, kidney AP." And all of a sudden now we're working on a micro project together. Um, so that, those are, those small wins have been very meaningful to me, and those are some of the lessons that I've learned along the way.

Duane Newton 29:42

That- that's really-- I have found those surprising connections with people and, and it's not that you turn them into microbiologists, but to, to be able to get someone enthusiastic about what you're enthusiastic about is, that's always really rewarding. So that engagement was, you know, one of the, one of the parts of that model. You know, just what were the other parts of the model that you talked about?

Ken Gavina 30:14

Oh, I'd have to remember off the top of my head here. But, um, the second one, it, it sounds ridiculous. So the first one is engagement and enjoyment, which is did they like it? Yeah. Did they like the learning aspect of it? The second is did they learn something? Like, did they actually learn something, or did you guys just play games for an hour? Mm-hmm. Um, the third one is does it change their behavior? Um, so, um, from a medical education standpoint, you're kind of looking at does it change how they operate in a clinical practice? Does it, you know, whether that be through, um- Communication with their teams or maybe like prescribing practice if they're like a pharmacist or something like that, or a physician. And then the fourth, which is the very tippy-toppy, um, level of the pyramid and the hardest to kind of quantify or assess is does it lead to systems or systemic changes from that teaching method? So like our I- if we're going back with the, the medical education example, if the third level, which is their, their practice and behavior change, does it change the way that physician is prescribing or how they, um, they, they work as a, as a healthcare pr- provider? The fourth level for system changes could be like did that reduce their rate of like CLABSI or did it show an improvement in like overall diagnostic stewardship or- Mm-hmm things like that. So it gets kind of more very shallow and personable. It's like did they like it? And then did they l- did they learn something? And then it looks into their career, and then it looks into not just their career, but their, you know, their ecosystem or their community or the surroundings and the impact that they can make.

Duane Newton 31:53

And that was called the Kirkpatrick Model?

Ken Gavina 31:55

Kirkpatrick Model, that is correct. Okay. I've never heard about it before either until I- That's until I had to read into it because I was giving a talk about medical education, so.

Duane Newton 32:05

Well, that's one way to learn about a topic is to have to teach about it.

Ken Gavina 32:09

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Duane Newton 32:11

So the I know as a person you, uh, are naturally energetic and enthusiastic and personable and engaging, and I'm sure in the classroom setting and in a mentoring setting that comes across really, uh, profoundly. And I'm curious as to whether, you know, all of that style and approach that you're taking is, you know, is you, or were there people that, um, were in your life at different, you know, whether it was, you know, in your pre-college days or college days, graduate school days, that you saw, you know, them as educators, as mentors, as, as leaders that had an impact on you, that influenced in kind of the approaches that you've taken?

Ken Gavina 33:09

Yeah. I, I think, you know, you, you, you described me with all those words and characteristics, and I, I, I'm gonna say that I, I think it's what works for me. I don't think there's a, a one model fits all to being a, the perfect prototype of an engaged mentor and, and, and like, you know, the perfect mentor or teacher. Um, it's what, it's what works for me. You know, like you said, I, I tend to fall on the extroverted side. I tend to be a little bit more energetic than most. Um, so for me, when I kind of embrace those aspects of my, my character, um- I expend less energy having to try and be something, not having to try to be something I'm not. I can, I can just be myself. And with previous mentors that I've had, you know, not all of them were, you know, outgoing, extroverted, energetic, highly engaging. Um, but I will say that, um, all the mentors that I've had that have made kind of more of a profound impact on me all had one thing in common, and it's that they were all genuine. Um, they were genuine individuals in terms of how they, you know, approached their mentoring, um, style, and they all had a genuine investment and cared about me as a learner. I think those are the two most important things for any kind of, you know, successful mentor-mentee relationship, is that they have to be genuine and they have to be genuinely invested in you as a learner. And I, you know, you're not always gonna have that. So you can still be a, a good or a great mentor, but, um, you know, if you're not invested in the student's learning, then maybe they're not getting the most out of it. But, like, you're s- it doesn't take away from the fact that you're a good teacher or a good mentor. It's just, it, it's a different type of relationship. And I've also had some mentors who, um, were not so great, you know? Um, whether it was the fact that they, their style maybe didn't match with what I was trying to learn, or maybe that, you know, um, they were sometimes disingenuous. There was always, like, an ulterior motive to why we had to do things. And as a, as a mentee at the time, you know, you pick up on those. Um, and I learned from them when I transitioned from that learner mentee role to a mentor, is that that's something I never wanna leave in my trainees or mentees as a feeling, um, because it didn't feel good at the time when I w- when I was learning from them or when, you know, they're, they're in a role where they're supposed to take care of me, so to speak. Um, so I learned from those mistakes and I, I, I built, I built it off of that. Um, yeah.

Duane Newton 35:57

I can imagine that the, that same approach of being genuine and authentic, uh, applies to how you approach your, um, leading your staff in the lab, too.

Ken Gavina 36:15

Yeah. You know, like, it, it's, it's something that I, I try to take as an approach in everything I do. Um, like- Not just my staff, but also my colleagues, you know Mm-hmm Um, and the mentor-mentee relationship never stops. Like, even to this day, um, you know, uh, I, I still with my old, my old mentors, with Ryan and Stephanie, I still reach out to them very regularly. Um, Duane, like, as you know, for our listeners, when I finished, uh, my CPEP fellowship and even still in like my last year of CPEP fellowship, I reached out to Duane, and, uh, Duane has been acting as a, a mentor and a, a coach for me for quite some time. And, you know, he's obviously done a, a decent enough job that I'm still around. Um He hasn't chased me off quite yet, so kudos to you.

Duane Newton 37:04

Thank you. Or, or your organization has, hasn't decided that you failed objectively and, and said, you know, "You can't handle this anymore." So you're still gainfully employed, so that's a

Ken Gavina 37:14

good sign. So I, I think that, like, you know, being, being genuine and like you mentioned, that authenticity is something that I try to embody and, and practice in all aspects of my career and, you know, even at home with like friends and family and stuff too. Just makes things easier. You have to be mindful about it, but it does make things significantly easier in life.

Duane Newton 37:39

Well, that's one of the reasons why I like you and I wanted to talk with you in this setting too, is that, you know, that, uh, authenticity and that, that genuineness I think is important and, uh, is something I value as well. Uh, so I appreciate your kind words. And it, it actually kind of dovetails into another question that I had for you, because one of the things that, um, that we talked about, we've talked about over the last couple of years has been some of the activities that you've gotten involved in outside of the laboratory and, and you've been really engaged, um, on a professional level in professional organizations, you know, locally, regionally, nationally. Can you talk a little bit about that process and of how you've, how you've approached it and how you've decided what to put on your plate and what not to put on your plate? It is I, I know that I can recall, uh, you know, it was, um, an ice age ago when I was in your position, you know, starting as a lab director and seeing I never got accosted in a bathroom by, you know, a senior microbiologist. But, you know, I certainly was aware of who, you know, the senior people and the, the names in our, in our not only in our profession, but you know, the leaders of the different organizations. And you look at- You know, as a young person, you look at who they are and where they are and, you know, you feel like, you know, you want to be like them and you want to do the things that they're doing, and in order to be like them, you need to do the things that they're doing. And, and, uh, you know, if y- from the outside, it looks like they're doing a million different things. They're on a million different committees, and they're, you know, accomplishing them at a 10 out of 10 level all the time. And, you know, it's like how do, how do I do that? And, you know, first how do I get involved, and then how do I do it, and how am I successful, and how do I juggle all these balls? And, um, and eventually realized, you know, that there was a way to do things that aligned with me and, you know, the things that I got involved in were more aligned with what I wanted to accomplish and... But it was a difficult process, and it's, and it's still something that I am challenged by. So, you know, from your perspective where you are in your career, and, and you've been extremely successful from my perspective, I see, you know, you're doing a great job in, in so many different areas. How did you, how did you decide, you know, what you wanted to pursue and h- what is the pro- you know, the decision-making process when you just, when you said, "You know, I'm gonna take this off my plate"?

Ken Gavina 40:55

So the first thing that comes to mind is now you're gonna have to leave that story I shared in the beginning, because you made reference to being accosted by a senior clinical microbiologist in the bathroom- as a trainee, and with no context whatsoever. This entire podcast is gonna be an absolute wash. So thank you for sharing that, because now our, our, our origin story- It's a callback of how we... Yeah. Our origin story of how we met is now, is now locked in. Um, yeah, you're, you're absolutely right. It's, it's not easy, um, trying to decide, you know, when you're in a stage of, like, early career from trainee to even, like, early PI or early level director, like, how to put your name out there. And, and that's something that Duane alluded to when, when he mentioned that him and I had been ta- having discussions about what I should be taking on. A lot of this has to do with, at the time, was my desire for, like, academic promotion and how do I establish myself, uh, as a, as a professional in my career and, like, move up the, the ladder, so to speak. And, you know, there's, there's a mantra that you could say you should just take any opportunity that you can and that comes to you or that's presented to you, and to a certain extent, that is the correct answer. Um- Is it a sustainable answer? No, that's, that's an entirely different question. Um, so I think, like, the first thing for me, um, I, is that I was fortunate enough to have amazing role models and, again, great mentors, um, in, in, in Ryan and in you during my big clinical microbiology phase where I was able to get introduced to other people and societies through connections and mentorship and, um, you know, I, I was never, um, shy of putting myself out there to introduce myself and to talk and to network and, and things like that. But I, I don't think that that's the only way to go about it. I mean, I, when I say that is I don't wanna fault people who are more naturally introverted and who are a little bit more on the shy side, like they shouldn't have to suffer the consequences of not being able to go out there and introduce themselves to people and have those same opportunities. I think there are other ways you can do it, um, and again, it, it, but it, it all starts with kind of that initial communication, whether it be with someone you're more familiar with and maybe are more comfortable speaking to, to make that connection to areas that you wanna be involved in. Um, there, there are always other approaches to it. Ev- everyone thinks it's like, "Oh, you have to attend this conference so you can go network with all the big names." That sounds daunting even to me. Um, so I could only imagine what it would feel like for somebody who's maybe a little bit more introverted and, and, and doesn't like the cold calling aspect of that. But I agree that I think early on it never hurts to take on things that are provided to you as an opportunity if you feel that it aligns with what you're trying to do. So for me, um, when you're, when you're moving through the rung of, like, assistant to associate professorship, you know, they have this criteria that you need to meet, you know, regional and national level recognition. So what does that mean? You know, publications or involvement in national or regional societies. So I'm like, "Okay, that seems fairly simple." Um, so for me, like, the, the societies that I were, I had been involved with at the time as a fellow were SCACM and PASCV and ASM obviously, and AMP as well. And I had a genuine interest in those societies because they were in fields that I found enjoyable, intellectually stimulating, that I was passionate about. So my first advice would be to anyone who is looking to get involved in, you know, professional societies or extracurricular activities outside of their, their job or their career, is make sure you're getting involved in something that you actually enjoy. Um, you're going to be taking on a task and role that is gonna eat up at your bandwidth, and if it's not something that you enjoy, then you're already doing it for the wrong reasons Um, so for me, I, I actually got involved fairly early on. Uh, I was involved with the digital outreach committee with PASCV, and I got to meet people like, um, you know, Elli Thiel and Erin Graf and, you know, um, uh, just a whole bunch of people through, through PASCV that, uh, I was able to, like you said, role model and, and look at like how- what did they do? How did they get to where they... I wanna be that person and- Mm-hmm kind of give me something to aspire to. And it's through those kind of involvements where, you know, there's, there's a lot of us out there, but our- I feel that our community and our society's still fairly close-knit. I feel like everybody knows everybody for the most part in the world of clinical microbiology, at least within, at least within North America. Um, so if you're involved in something and you're passionate about it and you're being genuine, you're, you're gonna wanna do a good job, and those efforts will get recognized. They shine through. So when other opportunities arise, whether they're at the same kind of level, maybe it's a, uh, committee-level position, maybe it's a committee chair, maybe it's something bigger, um, they'll be like, "Hey, so-and-so's been doing a great job at this, and they seem very excited and passionate about it. Um, consider them." Learn that's kind of how it's, it's the word of mouth at those executive-level, um, decision-making levels that really go a long way that behind the scenes because, you know, when we're talking about, um, I'm now on the, uh, program planning committee for the PASCV annual meeting. I was on the program planning committee for the Clinical Virology Symposium when that was still its own independent meeting. And you start thinking about different speakers and different members or panelists and things like that, and that's where the recommendations start to come in. Like, you're not always gonna try and pick the most renowned scientist or clinical microbiologist in every field. Sometimes it's, it's gonna be a young investigator who's highly energetic and passionate and has a decent understanding and expertise in that subject that would be the perfect fit for that role. Um, so for me, like, you know, first and foremost, make sure that you're doing something that you enjoy, and that makes it easier for you because it's, it's- you're gonna be committing your time to it anyways, and if it's something you enjoy, then it, it makes it a little bit more palatable to do it. And then in conversations that you and I had, like now as, as an attending and we're getting more involved in these roles, we, we start to be a little bit more strategic with what we take on. And what I mean by that is if you're building out your professional, you know, dossier or CV, um, you wanna show You know, almost maybe versatility isn't the right word, but like that you have a wider breadth of contribution to these professional societies. So at that point, I'd been involved in several different committees already for different professional societies, whether it be SCACM, PASCV, or ASM. Um, I wanted to try and get experience or knowledge in areas that I, I haven't done yet. So, you know, I had offers to, uh, to join different committees that I declined because I'm As, as much as I, I would love to contribute, I, I'm not gonna enjoy it as much as I'm, the committees that I'm already currently serving, and this also doesn't benefit me professionally. And, you know, you have to move on from that mindset as like an early career, you take every opportunity that you can get to like, okay, now I need to start balancing some kind of semblance of work-life balance and, uh, commitments. And that's kind of where I started. That was the low-hanging fruit for me is learning to say no to things that I've already done or to an equivocal level that either, A, I am not as passionate about, or B, I just don't have the bandwidth for to expand, and it gives me no benefit from a promotional standpoint. So things that I started pursuing were things like, um-

Duane Newton 49:11

Actually, I wanna interrupt you for a second- Yeah, yeah. Go for it before you start that pro- that, you know, kind of the next level of-

Ken Gavina 49:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah

Duane Newton 49:18

focus. You make it sound so easy to say- Oh, it's

Ken Gavina 49:22

not. It's not Absolutely not.

Duane Newton 49:25

Like, could, could you talk a little bit about, you know, the, the feelings that you had or the conflicts that kind of emerged, you know, real or perceived about, you know, starting to put, set boundaries and, you know, what, what was going on for you and, and kind of was there any, was there any fallout or, you know, what- whatever you feel comfortable sharing. I mean- Yeah it, it's just I, I suspect it wasn't an, a smooth of a process as you, uh, as you made it sound.

Ken Gavina 49:57

No, it's, it's definitely not. So, um, fortunately for me, there's never been any fallout with anything that I've declined or, or rejected an offer for. Um, but some of the feelings and emotions that immediately come to mind when you, and you say no to things like that are regret. Um, that's a big one. Like, am I gonna regret this decision? Um, fear, uh, and different kinds of fear. So fear of like letting people down. Like, oh, shoot, like this person reached out to me and they were banking on me to accept this. Like, am I gonna sour that relationship? Am I gonna let them down? Are they gonna see, think of, think less of me because of the decision I made in that? And, you know, we can, we can pivot this entire conversation to perspective and, uh, like a mental health connotation of controlling only what you can control. But that's kinda what it came down to for me is that I can't dictate how another person's opinion of me is going to- ultimately be affected by the decision that I just made- Mm-hmm so I need to let go of that. And again, sounds way easier-

Duane Newton 50:58

Yeah,

Ken Gavina 50:58

it's like- for me to say it like that. That's, that's an entirely different thing.

Duane Newton 51:01

I'm still, I still I mean, that's, like, baggage that I've been carrying for forever and ever and ever. But it- it's r- it's, it's one of the It is a barrier. It's something that is tough to, um, tough to let go of, and I appreciate you articulating it because it is a real feeling. A- did you Maybe not fallouts from saying no, but what about things that you said yes to that m- maybe didn't, either didn't work out the way you wanted them to or told you something about, "Uh, I know that's not something that I wanna pursue again," you know? 'Cause not, not everything is, you know, rosy and, and, you know, lollipops and gumdrops when you decide to go, you know, go down a particular path. So did you Can you talk about experiences? Anything come to mind where you're like, "I'm, I'm glad I'm done with that and I'm not gonna do that anymore"?

Ken Gavina 52:10

Oh, absolutely. And I'm, I'm not gonna cold call them by name. Um- But there's, there's definitely been instances-

Duane Newton 52:16

Oh, it's just, it's We're just having a nice conversation between you

Ken Gavina 52:19

and me. There's, there's definitely been instances where, yes, I've agreed to, to committing for, you know, um, some kinda position or role for an extended period of time, and either immediately after accepting or days or weeks or months after, I was like, "Ah, crap, I, I shouldn't have said yes to this. What was I thinking?" You know? In, in, like, the grander scheme of, like, looking at what all my other commitments are. And again, you have to keep in mind that these are commitments outside of our actual role as, like, a laboratory director and a, a, a mentor, prof- assistant professor or whatever. Um, I don't have them as much now because I feel like now I have a better handle on, you know, kinda triaging those things in my mind. Uh, I, I do it a little bit faster now. But certainly earlier on when I was still kind of what I'll describe as the phase as, like, you should say yes to every opportunity that you can get versus, like, when you start to move into that gray zone of when you can start to say no. Um, it certainly happened a lot more frequently, um, earlier on, but not, not, not so much now. But yeah, certainly not everything is, uh, is sunshines and rainbows as, as, as you described. There, there are feelings, uh, genuine feelings of regret for some of the decisions that I've made in the past for accepting things. Um, but that doesn't mean that I, you know, followed through any less or put any less effort because, you know, once you commit to something, you know- It, it should be, uh, it, it is the professional expectation that you, you hold your word through, and that's, that's very important to me to, to not do a crappy job. Um, and that's something that I, I started to realize too when that breaking point and back in that gray zone where I knew I was taking on too much because things that I was normally doing a great job at or a good job at now were suddenly just becoming meh, okay, you know? Um, and I hated that. It felt awful, and I think that the reason why they weren't being up to what I would consider my, um, my standard is because I had taken on too much, and I was no longer able to invest as much time into making as something as high quality, um, that I would be proud to put my name on. Um, and when I realized that that was happening, that was kind of like a cold moment for me to realize, okay, we can't, like, we can't let this happen again. And that was a, a deciding factor that kind of helped me make these decisions moving forward or, like, kind of a realization moment, I guess, for me, where it's just like, okay, we, we need to start focusing on what's important. And, you know, again, sounds, sounds easy to, to talk about it, but this is... You're hearing me talk about this on a podcast no longer than, you know, 60, 90 minutes, where I've kind of struggled with it for months and years, and some peoples have struggled with this for years and decades to, to be able to come to that ability to triage and come to a rapid conclusion. So it, it's very much easier said, um, than done.

Duane Newton 55:24

And it's a, uh, it's a process. You know, I think that there's ups and downs in it, and in the, the decisions that we make, you, you're making based on the best information that you have at the time, and, and, and things change. And I think that you w- one, one of the things that is bubbling up that I wanna point out or, you know, put a name on is the fact that having, having that kind of self-awareness is really, really important. How am I showing up? How am I engaging? What's important to me? What do I value? I think all those things are so critical in impacting the directions that we go, the decisions that we make, the approaches that we take. And so, you know, knowing, knowing what's important to you and having spent time thinking about what's important to you, it is very, very important. And- Is a great, um... What's the word I'm looking for? It's, it's like a, um, a guidepost, you know, a set of guideposts, series of guideposts to point you in directions. And, and so- It's a

Ken Gavina 57:03

tool. It's a tool that you, you hone and you learn, you acquire, you add to it, you remove from it. It, it's always- Mm-hmm it's fluid. Um, it's a great way to describe it.

Duane Newton 57:15

And that, you know, when you're deviating from that, certain feelings start to bubble up. And paying attention to those feelings, having, you know, th- that, that intuition about, you know, what's right or what's aligned for you is really important to listen to. And, um, oftentimes we-- I know I have pushed those feelings down and, and, uh, I didn't trust them or, you know, I let what I thought was supposed to happen or th- what I thought I was supposed to be doing override those things, and then y- you just get into that miserable point where, you know, that you alluded to that you know that it's not right, and you have to figure out how to extract yourself from this. And, and it's really, really difficult to do when, you know, especially when you've made a commitment. Um, but I think that those are, those are really excellent lessons that, you know, I think you're doing a great job of articulating and, you know, you have that, you have those tools in your toolbox as you are taking these steps along your career. And I think that's-- those are important, um, important tools to access and skills to develop. And it, it ain't the... You know, you, you-- I interrupted you when you were starting to go to the, the part where, okay, now I'm getting involved in, you know, things that are more selective, that are targeted towards, uh, targeted towards activities or roles that help you accomplish a certain thing that's important to you. That... How is that process going and, and, you know, what are, what are the things that are driving... You know, we talked about vision and-- or values and, um, alignment but, you know, what are the things that are of value to you that are, that are driving those decisions on what you wanna get involved in?

Ken Gavina 59:41

Yeah. So the, the point I was, I was, I was gonna make, um, was, uh, you know, I, I think we've established that I, I've, I've kind of already made this mental checklist for myself from my objective and goal, which, you know, in, in this context we'll frame it as academic promotion. And I think where we last left off was I had a lot of committee roles, so I'm like, "What else can I build on this foundation that helps boost my dossier and CV that is something that's different and adds more breadth?" And for me, that was roles with, um, reviewers, journal reviews, editor, um, for professional journals. So I, I pursued that role, uh, as far as like, you know, being very active in reviewing manuscripts and journals for different professional societies. Um, there was a call-out for, um, reviewing editors, um, so I, I applied for that. And because I'd been so active, I, I guess I had a strong application, so I was, I was accepted on as an editor. Um, and that, that was for the journal, um, ASM Microbiology Spectrum. Um, so I'm, I'm an editor for them. And similarly, I, I'm, I've joined the editorial boards for a few other journals where I've, instead of me applying, I've been invited. And I think again, it just kind of, it's, it's the merit of the work you put in in the positions that you have control of deciding. So while I'm, I'm looking at all these kind of, you know, the next level or the next step roles, um, I'm making sure that they check the box that this is still going to be in alignment with what I'm ultimately trying to achieve as my objective or goal, which is academic promotion, but I'm also still trying to keep in mind, is this something that I enjoy? Is this something that still, you know, brings me joy or that I'm in- I'm passionate about? Um, because y- you don't want, even if it's a step up in the right direction, like, it, it could be, "We would love to invite you to be a senior editor for, you know, um, nanoparticles in an, an engineering magazine," or something like that. It could be Nature magazine for all I care. It's highly prestigious. It checks the box for my objectives of what I want for professional growth and development for academic promotion, but I, it's not my main passion or interest. I wouldn't enjoy doing it. So for me, that's a bucket where I can triage really quickly. Like, that's something I'll have to decline even though it checks so many boxes. It, it doesn't check one of my core values for how I'm, how I'm approaching things I wanna do for prof- for professional growth. And, you know, even to this day, like, I still have things like that where I, I'm being given offers or opportunities that I think are even like the next, next step. So, you know, I've had a, um- One thing that I'll share, and I'm not sure if I'm allowed to share this or not, but I had a nomination for a fairly high-level position within a, a professional society. Um, and I was really flattered to be considered for that despite still being very junior in early career. But my, my train of thought was, yeah, this would be phenomenal to accept it, and if I got nominated and, and voted and accepted in, it would be, it would be great. But at that point, it was, it was also within a, within a group or society that I'm still heavily involved in. So, you know, it checks all those boxes. It, it, it a- it aligns with my professional goal. It's something that I enjoy. But the third box is, am I gonna fall into the trap by accepting this position? Will I still be able to have the same commitment and investment in all my other commitments to date? And for me, that was a very big red flag because I knew that this role that I could potentially be, um, or opportunity I could potentially be taking, the rest of my commitments would suffer. Uh, and that was something that I was not willing to sacrifice, um, um, based, uh, at, at that time and moment. So I, I declined, um, that opportunity and, and that, um, that nomination, um, because I d- I didn't want to take away from everything else that I was also enjoying doing that also helped my career and, um, that was of high quality. Um, so I didn't want that to be diminished. And this is something that's still ongoing, you know, outside of even within work. You know, opportunities within my, um, clinical laboratory through my institution. There are, there are things that are coming up where I have to be very selective about, you know... It, it's, it's very tempting to be offered something that looks like it checks every box, and for the most part it does, but if it's gonna cause everything else to suffer, then you have to be able to let go of something else in order to take that on because you can't just keep adding mass to your plate.

Duane Newton 1:04:34

Mm-hmm. I think that's, um, you-- those are really important and wise words, and it-- I know how easy it is to maybe have the appeal of the shiny object. It, it has a very- Yeah. It's, it's very alluring and, you know, maybe there's, you know, there, there are elements of it that scratch itches that, you know, are not important values. Um, but it's still is something that, you know, oh boy, that would be really cool. And to, to say no and to, you know, to have the, have a value system in place to be able to sort through all that stuff is really important. And I, I think that in, in underlying all of this is recognizing Uh, a- and one of the things that I have tried to emphasize to folks that are, you know, m- making these decisions as they go through their career, that everybody You're actually, you're not gonna miss out. Y- you're developing a story that's really important and valuable that is gonna resonate. Uh, and there, there are people that can help. You know, if you're not seeing it, there are people that can help you see what that story is. Um, but y- you don't have to have all of these things to, uh, to get promoted. You, you have to have your things and, and you have to be, uh, passionate and enthusiastic about the story that you're telling that's uniquely yours. And, um, you know, in an academic setting to get promoted, I think that's, um That will come across. I think, you know, if you're not in an academic setting, uh, you're, you don't have those kinds of that c- that kind of ladder that you, um, are subjected to the same kind of approach of have, you know, doing things that are aligned with your value system and, and showing up authentically. I think that will allow you to be successful, j- just as successful in, in that kind of a setting too. So the things that you're doing, I think it translates and it makes me think about maybe as a kind of a final wrap up, excuse me. It makes me think of, you know, as maybe a final wrap up question. If you could go back to, you know, so many years ago in the younger version of yourself that I, I'm being sarcastic when I say that. But you know, an earlier version of Ken, you know, I, I don't know, you can Whether that's an undergrad or grad student version or, or maybe even before. Mm, are there things that you would go back to the younger version of yourself and say, uh, you know, what would If you had that opportunity, what would you tell young Ken?

Ken Gavina 1:08:17

Um, see that's a tough question because I value all of my failures and mistakes, if not more so than my successes, um, because I learned a lot from them, and I think that's- I've, I screwed up a lot in, in my early career and as a trainee. Like, I, I was abysmal. Um, and I think because of that, that's how I was able to get to where I am because I was able to acknowledge that mistakes were an opportunity to learn and build from, um, rather than try to, like, you know, let myself get down. So I've been asked this question in a different, in a variety of ways in, in, in the past as well, and I don't know if there's anything I would ask myself to ch- I would p- put- I

Duane Newton 1:09:09

didn't ask you to change

Ken Gavina 1:09:11

I know. If I could say something, like outside

Duane Newton 1:09:13

of

Ken Gavina 1:09:13

like- Yeah, just,

Duane Newton 1:09:14

yeah. I mean, the, the, I mean, uh, the, the, um, the example that you gave about learning from your mistakes, you know, was that something in the moment? Are you sitting there and it's like, "Oh, that, that failed miserably. Wow, what a great opportunity to learn about myself."

Ken Gavina 1:09:33

Oh, hell no. Come on. Absolutely not. I guess I would say, you know, outside of the obvious, which would be like invest in Apple and all those other things- Yeah, yeah, yeah. No all those other things, would be, um, embrace the suck and, you know, enjoy the struggle, and that sounds manic, that sounds sadistic, but it's, it, it, it's honestly so true. And, you know, you, you hear grander comments like that in the gym, like, "Oh, embrace the suck," or- I

Duane Newton 1:10:05

was just gonna say- "Feel the burn" yeah, you're a weightlifter and, you know, that's something that y- you there's, there's a s- there's struggle and there's pain and there's- Yeah um, there's exhaustion.

Ken Gavina 1:10:20

Sure.

Duane Newton 1:10:20

And, and sometimes you tweak things because you pushed too hard, you whatever. Yeah. But you also know that if you keep going through this-

Ken Gavina 1:10:33

Yeah

Duane Newton 1:10:34

that you're going to get to this point where- Yeah there's, there's benefit from it. And-

Ken Gavina 1:10:39

How, how is that any different from- Yeah mental fortitude and professional development?

Duane Newton 1:10:43

Right.

Ken Gavina 1:10:43

It's- I think- it's the same thing

Duane Newton 1:10:45

I think because you don't see, you don't see the gains in the mirror-

Ken Gavina 1:10:50

True

Duane Newton 1:10:50

often, or maybe you don't recognize them, or maybe I know for me it's, um, you know, the equivalent would be, well, this part of my body is still not developed like I want it to be, you know? I'm looking at the, the empty side of the glass m- more, or, or, or focusing on the negatives, you know? So I It is, it, it is equivalent, um, but maybe not as easy to see the, the impact that, you know, that struggle Until it's ref- uh, you know, until it's way retrospective. Certainly. It's a lot easier for me to

Ken Gavina 1:11:37

see- Yeah

Duane Newton 1:11:38

it now too.

Ken Gavina 1:11:38

Like, you, you know, you, you struggle. Let's say you're, you're squatting in the gym, you struggle for months on end, but three months down the road you've noticeably put on more weight. There is a quantitative number to your improvement. But let's flip this to what we were discussing about earlier with, like, being able to triage those decisions really quickly in your head on is this a good opportunity to, to take on for professional development? And, you know, months ago maybe you would've taken it on off the rip and being like, "This is gonna be great." And then you're, you're stuck in the, ah, I should not have done that. But after the mistakes and, and, and learning from that and building from that and reflecting on that and being a little bit more self-aware and attuned to what you're trying to accomplish, that same opportunity comes up and you're, you're able to make, you know, after some time and pondering, to, the critical decision that, you know, this might not be the right time for it, uh, I respectfully decline.

Duane Newton 1:12:36

Mm-hmm.

Ken Gavina 1:12:37

Um, to your point exactly, it, it's harder to quantitate that exactly. Now sure, for educational you, you, you might be able to see things from like a, like a certification standpoint. You know, maybe you add some letters after your name in, in like, uh, titles or, or things like that where you can use those as metrics. But I think we're trying to talk about something a little bit deeper than that that i- is not obviously-

Duane Newton 1:13:03

Mm-hmm

Ken Gavina 1:13:04

very, very easy to recognize and see to exactly what you said until, you know, you're able, like years down the road or months down the road when you're, you're reflecting back and retrospectively saying like, "Wow, I grew a lot from that." Um, two things I will quickly say is that, you know, we're, we're talking about all this and I, I, I tell you these stories about how I made the decision, and these weren't decisions I made on the spot. All of these, like, major decisions were like, "Yeah, thank you. Um, I'm gonna take a bit of time to, to try and think about this." So, um, you don't have to... The expectation is not for you to triage the decision on the spot, you know? I've, I've bounced these opportunities to, like, to you, Duane, to other mentors, and to, to friends and colleagues and family that I trust to, to get their thoughts on and, you know, I take all of that into account when I make a decision. And then the other point that I, I, I wanna quickly touch up on is you're absolutely right. Like, even though I love embracing my mistakes and trying to learn from them, doesn't mean they feel good. Like, if I screw up I don't be like, "Cool, that was awesome. I feel amazing. Let's go have a beer." Maybe I go have a beer for an entirely different reason. But, you know, when mistakes happen they feel bad, you know? You, when you screw up it feels bad, and that's okay. That's, that's a natural feeling to have. But what you need to do is you need to be able to eventually move on from feeling bad and be like, "Okay-" What can we learn from this? Or is there anything we can learn from this? And I think, you know, the sooner you're able to do that and recognize that, I think the more growth and opportunities you'll have from every mistake that you make.

Duane Newton 1:14:43

It sounds like, you know, the important part in it that I, that I'm taking from in the stories and the perspective is that you're in, you're in a good place for giving yourself the space and grace to experience those things, to lear- to make mistakes, to learn, to grow. And, um, and, you know, that's, that's where that's-- those are the suck that you're embracing. You know, you, you're, um, I think that's r- a really important thing to a place to be able to get to where you give yourself a break, you, um, give yourself some credit, and, uh, and you acknowledge that, you know, things will work out. I don't necessarily know the direction that it's going to go, um, when that light is gonna show up in the tunnel, but, you know, that's this is the sucky part that I'm embracing because I know it'll, you know, there'll be gains down the road, and it'll and things are gonna work out. And, uh, I totally agree with you in going back and changing things that happened, you know, maybe isolated in- incidents where I could have approached things differently or could have showed up in, in a better way in certain situations. But I'm where I am now because of all those things that, that happened, and the mistakes that I made, and the decisions that I made, and all of that, you know, led to where I am. And, you know, I'm really grateful too to, to be where I am and to have, uh, the relationships that I have and the connections that I have with people like you that, you know, who knows, that butterfly effect, i- you know, from 20 years ago, who knows where I would be and if I would have all these great things. So not asking you to change anything, but I think y- you, you, you, you articulated it in a, in a similar way that I feel, and I, I think that that's a really important perspective, not because I feel the same way, but I, I think it's a healthy way to, to look at things. You know, embrace it, acknowledge that you're gonna, you're gonna learn and grow from it and- Um, and then you can give yourself a little... You know, be a little easier on yourself. That, that's awesome.

Ken Gavina 1:17:35

Yeah.

Duane Newton 1:17:35

I

Ken Gavina 1:17:36

think- Sorry, just I was gonna say really quickly, and for, for better or for worse, it, it's a common theme on this episode so far is that it's another thing to try and give yourself grace and, you know, easier said than done. Yeah. Um, unfortunately.

Duane Newton 1:17:50

Well, I'm, uh, in my 60th year, uh, of life, and, um, it's something that I work on literally every day. You know, and-

Ken Gavina 1:18:00

Yeah

Duane Newton 1:18:01

um, some days it's easier than others. And the, you, the things that you talked about, uh, are things that I, that I believe in as well. You know, you're showing up as your authentic self. You're being genuine. You're, um, you're engaging with people. You're taking the approach of understanding the perspective that they have, and that helps y- you know, inform you in, you know, how you lead, how you mentor. I, I think those are all really fabulous skills that you've developed and the awareness that, that you have, and I think those are, those are great pieces of information for people listening that, that they can take away. And I'm... really appreciate you joining today, and you're sharing all the stories even though some of them didn't, um, shed me in the greatest light. But I... But it's real, it's authentic and genuine. I was, I was excited for you, and I just happened to be there and, uh, say congratulations, so,

Ken Gavina 1:19:16

uh...

Duane Newton 1:19:17

Thanks, Ken, for, for joining me. I really appreciate it. I'm, I'm grateful to have you as a friend.

Ken Gavina 1:19:24

I appreciate you, Duane, for, for everything that you are and, um, everything that you're doing and for being a friend and a mentor and, and all of it. It, it's been an absolute pleasure being on here today. Thank you.

Duane Newton 1:19:34

Thanks. If you're enjoying Navigating Your Path, please be sure to like or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to directly connect with me, you can reach out via my podcast email, which is listed in the description of this episode. It also contains the links to the podcast website and YouTube channel where you can check out more of my content. Feel free to reach out if you'd like to share any comments or even make suggestions about future topics to discuss. I'd also love to hear from you if you have suggestions for people for me to interview or even if you'd like to be interviewed by me. You can also contact me if you'd like to learn more about what it is that I do as a professional development coach. I look forward to having you join me next time. Take good care.