Duane Newton 0:04

Hi, I'm Duane Newton, and welcome to Navigating Your Path. In this episode, I get to chat with my good friend and fellow University of Rochester CPEP fellowship alum, Dr. Linoj Samuel. Linoj is the division head of clinical microbiology at Henry Ford Health, just down the road from me in Detroit, Michigan. Our discussion was a perfect example of why I love to do this. In all the years I've known Linoj, I never knew that he grew up in Kuwait and had to flee with his family through Iraq during the first Gulf War. He talked about how that experience impacted he and his family and gave him a very human perspective on military and political conflict. We shared stories of the impact of our fellowship training and how the mentoring we received from Marilyn Menegas truly shaped our careers. As the title of this episode shows, we still hear her voice in our heads. Linoj also talked about his journey of service in our profession and how important it is for him to stay grounded and connected when facing adversity. I really hope you enjoy this conversation with Linoj Samuel Thanks for your willingness to, to chat with me. I think that the in- the approach that I, I wanna, I've wanted to take is just talking with people about their journey. Uh, you know, how... Where they came from and, and how they got to where you are now. Um, and recognizing that, you know, everybody's story is unique. And I think that those unique experiences provide a lot of insight to people about, you know, the kinds of things that we all go through or, you know, that we go through on that journey. And, um- And I know that some of it will resonate. Um, but I think more importantly, what I feel like this gives us an opportunity to do is, um, you know, step inside your shoes a little bit and, and allow people to get to know you and, uh, maybe feel a little more connected with you as a person. And, you know, so when you go to ASM next week that, uh, or whatever meeting, you know, that maybe folks that have listened would feel comfortable coming up and chatting with you and see you for the approachable person that you are. So thanks for your willingness to, to step into the, the circle and have a conversation.

Linoj Samuel 3:01

Yeah, no, no. Thank you for having me on, for sure.

Duane Newton 3:04

I think the, um, what I think is always really interesting is to start from, you know, kind of where you grew up and, and what your family life was like and, um, those That background has always provided some interesting stories from people. So in-

Linoj Samuel 3:24

Mm-hmm

Duane Newton 3:25

what's your, what's your origin story, Linoj?

Linoj Samuel 3:28

Yeah. So I actually, although my family's originally from India, my parents moved to the Middle East sometime in the '60s, and so I was born there and grew up in, in the Middle East, uh, and spent most of my time there aside from maybe a year or so when we had to leave when the, the, uh, First Gulf War broke out.

Duane Newton 3:51

So where in the Middle East?

Linoj Samuel 3:53

It was in Kuwait. Yeah. So I mean, from a, um, a standpoint of, like, what was that upbringing like? I mean, it was a very, those are really wealthy countries, right? And so, um, even though we were solidly middle class, I mean, we, we grew up in what I would say is a, a It was fairly good. You know, uh, I, I can't complain about my childhood, you know? And, and so aside from maybe the war part, that, that I could have done without. Uh, but, but, you know, I think that overall But from a very young age, I just was always interested in, you know, growing up in an age where we had, like, one TV channel you had to watch and, and there was not really great access to internet, aside from dial-up. You read a lot of books, and I would read newspapers from, like, front to back 'cause that's how bored I was out of my mind. And, uh, you know, I was always interested in, like, outbreaks and things of that affect the world, and I can't explain why that over other things. Um, and so I was- Thought at some level I'd be involved in infectious diseases and, and microbiology in some form.

Duane Newton 4:59

So, but you kind of glossed over this part really quickly. You were in Kuwait and you were in Kuwait during the first Gulf War.

Linoj Samuel 5:09

Yeah, so I was probably-

Duane Newton 5:11

What was that? Oh my gosh, that, I didn't realize that and Tell me a little more about that.

Linoj Samuel 5:19

I was, I was probably about, um, eighth or ninth grade at that time, and we woke up one morning and, and think of that, you know, we'd never been exposed to any kind of warfare at any point. I don't know that my upbringing was ran-- d-different from your average American here. Uh, but we woke up one morning, and there were tanks in the streets and soldiers, and turns out that the neighboring country had invaded us and, and most of you know the story. And so, um, it was sort of a couple of months of nothing happening after that because we were, um, stuck there. We couldn't leave. Um, parents couldn't go to their jobs. We couldn't go to school. And so you were sort of locked down. But it was an interesting perspective to being in a war versus reading about a war. At that point, there was no fighting, although, you know, there were, there were... there was a plane crash, a jet fighter crash on the field where we used to play soccer, you know?

Duane Newton 6:17

Hmm.

Linoj Samuel 6:18

Um, and so there were shortages of food and other supplies, but, but we're not gonna... we didn't starve or anything like that. What we didn't know was that we came across a lot of soldiers from, from the Iraqi army, and, and even though they were technically the enemy, having invaded Kuwait, most of them were conscripts. I mean, some of them were like 16-year-old kids. They didn't have a choice to be there in that matter.

Duane Newton 6:40

Not much older than you.

Linoj Samuel 6:41

Right. Right. Um, and so, and most of them were hungry, looking for stuff to eat, you know, and they had never seen the kind of like, you know, what we consider fairly average, having a microwave and things like that. They'd never seen things like that. And they're coming from a country with a lot more oil than Kuwait. And so, um, it was clear that they, they had a different upbringing and different circumstance than we did. Uh, and so anyways, long story short, we realized that nothing good was gonna happen, and, and we had to leave. So we ended up driving a convoy out of Kuwait all the way to Iraq, uh, because at the time, the US forces were building up on one side and the Iraqi forces on the other side. So we drove all the way to Iraq, ended up in Jordan. But turns out everyone had the same idea. So we're there with a quarter million people trying to get out of Jordan, and there weren't any flights to take us back to, um... We had a house back in India. And, um, so we were not technically refugees. We had a place to go, we just couldn't get there. So we ended up spending, uh, I would say maybe like five or six days in a refugee camp in the middle of the desert. And that was, I mean, an eye-opening experience. You know, again, we were with the Red Cross. They really took care of us, but you're in a tent in the desert. There's not a blade of grass to be seen or another building for miles around. Um, and they, they got us food, they got us water, and you know, there were other people who went before us who didn't have that kind of organization, who suffered a lot. So we were- fortunate in that regard. But for my parents, I mean, as a teenager, you have no sense of danger. You're like, "Oh, this is cool." Your parent- my parents, when I look back, they were freaking out, you know? They were like, they missed the meeting of a refugee camp. And, um, but, but you get a feel for, you know, what, it's one thing to read about these things, another thing to experience that in real time, right?

Duane Newton 8:31

What did you, like, d- are there some kind of long-lasting Feelings or perspectives that, you know, came from that experience that, you know, you carried with you

Linoj Samuel 8:45

Yeah, I think there's a lot of people have conversations about wars and, and, you know, whether they're justified or not, and then sometimes they are. But I think what we lose sight of is there is a constituency that is not fighting, that is just trying to live and get away. We left Kuwait with just the things we could carry, right? What have you packed in a suitcase. An entire lifetime left behind, not even the money in our bank accounts because we couldn't access those, right? So you're leaving with just what you can carry and, and going to a country you didn't grow up in, and on the way you're stuck in this camp in a tent. And so I think it really does make you think about, okay, even with what's going on now in the world, um, there are people that have nothing to do with either side that are struggling, and, and I think there needs to always needs to be a thought for those people. It also makes me appreciate the work of the Red Cross and other agencies too, um, out there because they did, they took good care of us, you know, even though it was a difficult situation. Um, eventually we did make our way back to, to Kuwait, uh, to India, sorry, um, and then spent a couple of years there. But that, that also changed my perspective. That was a completely different environment, different language, different... And you learn how to adapt to situations because you have no choice, right? And, and I think most of us are more capable of things than we think we are. Um, and, and we adjusted, um.

Duane Newton 10:05

My, um... I had an experience that ha-had an impact on me. It was, you know, nowhere near what you described, but my dad was in the military and where we lived in Germany when I was, um, real-- pretty young, second grade through fifth, like half of fifth grade. And, uh, we took a trip to Berlin, and at the time this was in the, um, early to mid-'70s. It was, you know, there's still East Germany. Berlin was split into East and West. And, um, I actually got to, uh, tour through East Germany and, you know, this is, the wall is still up, um, very much Cold War, Soviet era. And it wa- it was really impactful how different the other side of the wall was. And in the, the environment, you know, there was a lot of, um, deconstruction, you know, buildings that were falling apart and, and rubble, I remember. And the, the energy was very, um- Dark. And, you know, people, you know, just kind of kept to themselves and their heads down, and clearly we were, you know, Westerners and, um... But it had a huge impact on me even as a kid, and, you know, it was one of many situations that happened, uh, over time as a kid, a- as a military kid, where you're in environments that are not... You know, they're a lot different than what you're used to. And, um, I think, you know, the easiest way to describe it is it, it makes the world seem a lot smaller place, and you, you see how connected we really all are, you know, and that they're just people trying to do the best that you can. And, um, and it also made me, you know, appreciate and recognize I had, I had a different experience and I had a better experience and, you know, there are things to be grateful for. So I think it's just... It's interesting how those I think it's very valuable for people to have that kind of experience. You know, any kind of experience where you're getting out of your, your circle and you get to see- Yeah,

Linoj Samuel 12:33

your comfort zone. Although this was not by choice, to be clear. Um,

Duane Newton 12:37

but

Linoj Samuel 12:38

crossing over into Iraq was really interesting because, again, Iraq has more oil than Kuwait, but it was very underdeveloped. The people were living, um, you know, I think a lot of the, the towns we passed through, people were clearly struggling. And so it was interesting to see that sort of different perspective across the border, as you said. Um, and, and later on, I, I think that we were fortunate, in turn, because the US military came in and they, with their allies, they liberated Kuwait, 'cause the Kuwaitis were being, you know, arrested and tortured by the Iraqis, by Saddam Hussein, really. Not the Iraqi people, Saddam Hussein. And so I think that that was really, um, um, that allowed a lot of folks to come back, and we were able to return to our jobs, and well, my parents were able to return to their jobs. And, and we got back, and a lot of the country had been looted. Everything that could be picked up was taken away, and a lot of people lost everything they had. Um, but some random person had broken into our apartment and, and lived there and took care of all of our stuff. And so all of our stuff was there. And, and when my dad returned, he was like, "Oh, I'll just like, you know, you can just be our roommate." And that-- So there was a higher power looking out for us and everything, even our family albums, we got everything back-

Duane Newton 13:52

Wow

Linoj Samuel 13:53

um, when some people lost, had nothing left, you know?

Duane Newton 13:56

Wow, that's amazing. So I-- You were telling this story then of, you know, kind of your transition or your, your, where your interest in microbiology came from. So the bored kid who reads the newspaper to entertain himself gets fascinated with infectious diseases and kinda goes from there.

Linoj Samuel 14:15

Yeah. So after high school, I went in to do an undergrad in medical microbiology. So it was actually a, an MLS degree that I-- It was a four-year MLS degree that I did. And I realized that... I, I mean, I knew early on that I needed to do more, and so I had-- towards the end, um, I had applied for a master's program in the US, um, not knowing exactly how I would get where I wanted to go, uh, but I knew I needed more training, more education. Um, and so, uh, I ended up at the University of Arizona in the master's program, but I ended up quickly transitioning to, into the PhD program without actually completing the master's. Uh, was fortunate enough to work with Dr. Richard Friedman, um, who was doing a lot of work in TB. And somehow I showed up at the department with- without a mentor assigned to me, and he was like, "Well, you can hang around for a few months." And I did a few months, ended up becoming five years. Um, so I, I, I was able to get, stay there. I worked with TB, um- You know, I had a fantastic experience with some amazing people, uh, but got a real exposure to some of the challenges of being in basic science research, right? The challenge of funding, of NIH work, of, of working with a bug that takes, uh, months to grow, uh, and, and finding out, you know, uh, if the ninety, ninety-five percent of your, of your, of your graduate school work amounts to nothing. It's that five percent that really gets you You learn so much from the ninety-five percent, right? Um, and so that, I think that's a, that's a common shared experience for most of us. Um, but I think you, you, you, uh, you learn a lot in those times.

Duane Newton 15:57

You, it sounds like your experience, uh, is very similar to mine, um, that, you know, that you learned that basic science as a, you know, as a field of profession for your long term maybe wasn't aligned with what you wanted to do or I mean, how, what, what was the feeling or, you know, kind of what was the thought process as you were thinking about what your next steps were?

Linoj Samuel 16:26

Right. So, um, I, I, I had been-- So towards the end of my PhD, you know, and I saw in real time how the struggles of NIH funding and, and this is-- my, my mentor was someone who had had years and years of NIH funding, but towards the end was losing, struggling with grant funding. And, uh, I, I saw the struggles he was going through, and I knew that I still wanted to go back into more clinical space, uh, into more patient-facing roles, being directly engaged in clinical microbiology. But I didn't know anything about ASM CPEP programs. I'd been to ASM and never exposed to anything about CPEP programs. Um, and, uh, luckily, there was one of his previous students who happened to have been, um, who had been in a-- who had gotten a CPEP fellowship. And, and she-- I happened to have a random phone call with her, and she connected me to CPEP and ASM, that side of things. Um, and so, of course, I applied. Uh, of course, being an international, international student, it's a little challenging when these are competitive fellowships. At the time, there were far fewer fellowships than there are, than there are now. Um, and not all of them were accepting students at the time, at the, at the time. So I interviewed. I got one interview, and that was it. And, um, and that was at University of Rochester with our shared mentor, Marilyn Menegus. And I, and I distinctly remember her telling me at the time, and I'm reminded of this many times since, that, um, she thought I was a great candidate, but she thought I would, I would be-- I'd find my place elsewhere. Um, and then, uh, maybe a month later, she calls and offers me the position. Uh, so I knew I wasn't first choice, but you know what? I could care less. Um, I just wanted to get in, and I got in.

Duane Newton 18:09

I wasn't the first choice either, so

Linoj Samuel 18:13

So for all those who are struggling out there, um, I, I think that, you know, um, there, there's, there's always hope. Um, and, and, uh, and, and it don't-- doesn't matter if you're the best candidate or not, you just gotta be persistent and, and keep trying and, um, hang in there. So I, I got in, and I think, as you say, the rest is history. I mean, I think that the CPEP fellowship was amazing experience, uh, with Marilyn, with Dr. Hardy, with the, the extended family that are the CPEP fellows, past and present and, and future of that program. And I think, uh, Marilyn was central to that, you know. And, and even though she's gone now, her memory, I think, lives strong in, in all of us, right? Um, so-

Duane Newton 18:57

Do you have any favorite sayings or memories or, you know, takeaways from, from that time-

Linoj Samuel 19:05

Oh

Duane Newton 19:06

that, that you still, like it comes up or that it, it just reminds you of, of her in that experience?

Linoj Samuel 19:15

I mean, there, there's so many, you know, from her party magic tricks that she did at parties to, uh, to her sayings. I mean, I, I... You did learn from her some things that you should not do, even though she did them. Um, and so she taught. Even when she wasn't teaching, she was teaching you something, right? Um, but you know, things like, oh, the data is the data, you know. You catch yourself think- saying things like that- Yeah that, that you picked up from her along the way. Uh, but you know, I, I think she was committed to her art and her craft in a way that I think she was most of us can only hope to-

Duane Newton 19:51

Yeah aspire to. I, I was... Like how many, how many times you walk by her office and you see her, you know, with a pile of, you know, set of data out in front of her, and she's... You got her pencil out, and she's going through that, and it's-

Linoj Samuel 20:06

Yeah

Duane Newton 20:06

you think you're, you're working late, and it's 7:00, and you're heading home, and she's still, you know- Yeah.

Linoj Samuel 20:12

Yeah, and-

Duane Newton 20:13

she's at it

Linoj Samuel 20:14

I, I think the one thing I took away from her, uh, maybe not so much her work ethic 'cause I don't even try to match-

Duane Newton 20:21

Yeah

Linoj Samuel 20:21

but I think is to always be inquisitive and ask questions. And even after 40 years in her career, she was still just as curious and always wanted to know, and she was always set about doing the right thing for the patients, you know. The job is not just about metrics and numbers and budgets and whatnot. In the end of the day, I tell people, I still tell people like, "I wanna make sure that that person that came in got the right answer that they wanted," you know, and I hope that I never get to a point where I don't care about that, you know. I think that's what she can... she taught us, I think.

Duane Newton 20:50

I think you're... That's spot on, and, you know, I think that's a central part of, um- you know, what we do in our, in our jobs and, and she certainly, um, was critical in helping to instill that.

Linoj Samuel 21:09

Mm-hmm.

Duane Newton 21:10

Um, what, you know, in that period, to, to me it was the greatest time of my life. I mean, I f- I felt in that, that two years from a professional standpoint, I... it, it was just so fulfilling. But it wasn't, you know, it wasn't without challenges. I mean, what are, what are some things that a- along the way, not necessarily just in your fellowship, what kind of bumps in the road did you, did you face, and how did you, um, how did you overcome them?

Linoj Samuel 21:46

Yeah, I mean, I think you're always dealing with people's perceptions of you and expectations. I mean, even just getting to the fellowship, I mean, people was like, "Really? You got into that?" I mean, it's like I was like, yeah, you know? No, I, I think that, um, there's always this like, you know, I think a lot of people struggle with imposter syndrome and, and I think that should never hold you back from, like, trying for things that you, you... that they might, others might think that you can't achieve for yourself. Um-

Duane Newton 22:12

So you felt like an imposter?

Linoj Samuel 22:15

Oh, I mean, at, at some point. Don't we always feel like imposters even now? Um, and I think that at some point you just have to work through it and, and sort of, I don't know, do it anyways. Um, and, and so I think that, um, to think that, that you, you go through and, and even with my mentor and seeing the struggle that he went through later in his career, and that, that's his story to tell. But I think that you can be succe- successful if you want and, and you can push yourself to crazy standards, but, um, trying to please others and meet standards others have for you. But in the end, um, all you can do is be the best you can be in the position that you're in, right? Um-

Duane Newton 22:58

That's a very calm and kind of zen, uh, approach to things. And, um, you've always... Like, from the first time that I met you, that is how... That's the energy that you project, is this, like- Not, don't get flustered, don't get worked up about things, and just kind of... You have this ability, it seems, to just let things kind of, you know, water over a duck's back kind of thing. Is there anything that upsets you? Have you ever gotten upset and angry? And do you like it? I was thinking about it, like, I don't think I've ever seen Linoj bad. You know? You know,

Linoj Samuel 23:48

I think that, I, I think all of us have a mask that we wear, right? There's, there's things that get all of us flustered. I cannot think... Um, I'm sure there's plenty of times that that's-

Duane Newton 23:58

I'm not talking about, like, teenagers at home kind of-

Linoj Samuel 24:01

Oh, yeah, yeah. Good. And so that, that's definitely a challenge. But even going back, you know, you, you go back to your, um, just getting into the fellowship program. Yeah, you go- I got in, but then making that deadline, you know, 'cause I had a very short timeline between graduation and getting into the fellowship, and at the time, my mentor was having health issues, and he wasn't available. And, and somehow... And again, I think, you know, if you believe in a higher power, all that worked out. Because my mentor was having all these issues, my committee felt sorry for me. I was able to get out in time to, to make it to, you know. Then I didn't think I, I didn't have, have a publication at the point coming out of my, my PhD, but somehow I was able to, you know, work it through and, and get the publication while I was still in my fellowship. Um, and even at the end of the fellowship, you know, looking for jobs, and this is a theme even now, it's always been a theme, right? You, you go through what now? I just spent 11 years of schooling, and you're looking for the jobs, and you realize that this is tricky, right? You're looking for a very specific kind of position. And, um, and actually, Marilyn ended up keeping me for an extra month and a half because I was waiting for the right offer to come along. And she was generous in that regard, and she was like, "No, you wait for it." And I had, again, so thankful to have her as a mentor, and turns out it happened to be in Michigan, which is a state that my wife and I were looking to move to, uh, even though she thought I was crazy. But, um, you know, that's what, that's what worked out for us amazingly, you know. And so I'm very grateful for all the people that have poured into me over the years. So we think about getting flustered. I think that a lot of times when I get flustered, I, I do, and every- all of us do. I have to remind myself. I think over the years, what you think makes you happy changes, right? And you're, you have shifting goals and, and perspectives, and, you know, here's what makes you happy. But I have to remind myself that if I, if I see myself where I am now and the way I'm blessed now, uh, and I, I, I told myself 20 years ago, "This is where you'd be," I'd be like, "Oh, this is amazing." But now that I have those things, I'm like, "Oh, this is terrible. I gotta deal with all this crap," right? But I have to remind myself that, that, you know, we've come a long way, and, um, we need to keep that perspective where we were or right now and, and how far we've come, right?

Duane Newton 26:23

Yeah, I think that's, um, that's very well said because, uh- When you're in the middle of it, you know, there's a certain kind of emotion that's around it and, you know, and you're, you know, you're running a million miles an hour or you're dealing or handling and, but, you know, then there's a certain kind of pressure and, and then maybe there's also this You know, forward-looking part of you that's the next greatest thing or, you know, the next challenge or the next, um, finish line that you're trying to achieve. Um, and you lose... You can s- you can lose a little bit of the perspective of, of how far you've come. And I, and I think, um, there's, there's kind of, especially early on, and I remember feeling this way as a, um, as a young person trying to determine, you know, what path am I gonna go on? And first thing, I expected it to be very clear to me and, like, kind of on a silver platter. It's, "Here it is. Here's where you're gonna go." Uh, uh, that was wrong. And then, you know, once you figure that out, you know, it's sort of like this exponential, cl- ideally exponential, if not, you know, at least linear kind of progression. And you look back on it, and if you, if you actually track it from an emotional level, it's just like this- Yeah up and down, and up and down, and up and down. And yet there's still progress, and there's still growth and development and maturity that happens. And, um, I, I think it's hard, it's hard to appreciate that and believe that that's, um, that's, you know... And especially when you're in one of those dips- Right that you, you are moving forward. Um, but it, it's... I appreciate you saying that because it's something that I experience and I've had to... I've spent some time, like, e- even now, there's tough times you're going through and, like, there's a lot to be grateful for. I'm, I'm moving forward, you know, growth is still happening. Um- Yeah and that's a great, that's a great message. That, um, you know, one of the things from, you know, your growth and development that I've always been very impressed with is, you know, the level of commitment, um, to serve our profession that you've had and the, the things that you've gotten involved in and, um, in your contributions to the field. That's again, like, where you are now. It's been a stepwise progression to, um, to, you know, to reach these, these positions. But, you know, how did you get started? What, what are the things that, that, that you identified that resonated with you that, you know, that called you to, to serve and attracted you to serve and, and, um, how did you work on that process? Because I, I think especially for a, a, um, you know, a, you know, a current fellow or someone who's just starting out in the field, they see the Lonner Samuels that has, you know, all these years of experience and been on all these committees and they think, you know, "This is how I... I gotta be like that if I'm gonna be successful." But it, it can manifest itself in a bunch of different ways, and I'm just curious as to how, how yours, how you manifested yours.

Linoj Samuel 30:21

Yeah, I think that, one, I can't take a lot of credit for all that because I think a lot of people pour into, like I said, with Marilyn and others along the way. It's really the people you meet, you meet along the way, the journey that sort of lift you up, right? Um, and I still remember-- A lot of it has to do with, with making yourself available, right? And when you make yourself available, also being willing to give of yourself, your time and energy to those things. Uh, so I think if you are willing to serve, then be willing to serve. Like, you know, we, we struggle sometimes with people who say they're willing to serve but then don't really come through on that, and that's a challenge. But I think that I like to say when I was given the opportunity that I, that I made the most of it, and but that was because of the people that gave me those opportunities. So Larry Gray early on, you know, um, recruiting me into the ASM CPEP committee. The people at SCACM, so your regional microbiology, you know, associations like SCACM and SCASM and all. They did a lot of work early on in, in SCACM, where it was an amazing way to get to know people, see how these organizations worked. And being in program planning, I got to meet a lot of people that gave those talks and connect with them. Um, and then after that it was, it was Larry Gray recruiting me into, into ASM and CPEP. And honestly, it, it wasn't even that I had the best ideas on the committee or that I was the most effective. It was just that I was available. You know, when something needed to get done, I was available and I tried to make myself. Uh, and I cared about the fellowships because that was what got me where I wanted to be. Um, and so I, I think that those are things, it really is being available, being willing to connect, network with people. Um, and I think small organizations like, um, like SCACM, like SCASM, like PASCV, you know, a great way to connect and meet with people. Um, those are very helpful. Um, the, the folks and, and who sort of encourage you. And hopefully, when you get to that point, you're the person that encourages others, right? We can't always just take. I still remember the first time we did an ASM symposium, and it was Amanda Harrington and Susan Butler-Wu that sort of like said, "Let's do this." And I was like, "I'm like, I'm like nobody. Why would I do an ASM symposium?" And they dragged me into it, and I was like, "Oh, yeah, we actually did this," you know? And that's just like an amazing- And

Duane Newton 32:31

you had a full room Yeah. It was an

Linoj Samuel 32:32

amazing experience because, again, we're all living with imposter syndrome. We feed off of each other, and somehow it just worked, you know? Um, and so I think I'm thankful to a lot of people that, that helped me take those next steps along the way. And hopefully, you know, all of us are doing the same for others.

Duane Newton 32:52

The, um... You shared with me, um, k- along those lines, this, um, the Henry Ford summer, uh, program for young scientists that you've been involved. Can you talk a, a little bit about, about that? And I think that's a, that's a really interesting and important thing that you've been involved in.

Linoj Samuel 33:16

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I don't wanna overstate my involvement here because it's, it's a, a once a year thing in the summer. Um, I do a session, um, you know, I'd like to do more, but the time is limited. I do a session on, um, on, uh, infectious disease microbiology for up and coming, like, high school students in, in Metro Detroit, in the... mostly in the Detroit city area. And I think, again, it goes back to, you know, uh, folks always telling me, "Well, I don't have time," and to do things. And I think we all have a responsibility to make time for some of these things, right? There's always never gonna be enough time to get the things, everything done, and so it's a matter of setting priorities. And I think that even in a small way, you can serve your community. And again, this is a very small way, you know, um, but I think that that's what you need to do. Um, then create a national committee, the regionals with local stuff. And I think a lot of these kids are being exposed to a lot of things that are telling, giving them misinformation. And any opportunity we have, and I have never been in a room where the, the, the high schoolers weren't engaged. I mean, they were always 100%. Obviously, I'm not approaching it from the perspective of lecture, right? But they've always been 100% engaged, really interested, and the feedback I've gotten has been amazing from them.

Duane Newton 34:30

That's, that's amazing. And I think it demonstrates this, um, one of the, one of the attributes of a leader is that, you know, desire to give back and to teach and to coach and to mentor. And th- those kinds of skills are not often, um, you know, the tools t- to use are not presented to us and, and the practice at honing the s- you know, the use of those, you know, developing the skills to use those tools are, are not available. Um, and to, like, making that pivot from being, you know, the... all that technical expertise and the clinical expertise that w- in part of our training and experience that, you know, now you're in-- you leave a fellowship and you're in a job where, you know, that's actually very little of what you do, and most of what you do is leading. Can you talk about how- what that transition was like for you and, and, and the challenges that you had and, you know, the approaches that you've taken to overcome them and, and gonna be the kind of leader that you wanna be

Linoj Samuel 35:55

Yeah, I think that, um, the initial transition was very hard, as I'm sure you can imagine, right? I mean, I came in-

Duane Newton 36:01

As I experienced.

Linoj Samuel 36:03

Yeah,

Duane Newton 36:03

as

Linoj Samuel 36:04

well. Uh, but the, the previous director had been gone for over-- for a while, and so that's not an ideal situation for as a fellow coming out of the CPEP fellowship to go straight into a job where you're completely in charge of a full-service twenty-four seven lab.

Duane Newton 36:18

That hasn't had a director for...

Linoj Samuel 36:21

Yeah, perhaps for seven months and, and that was less than ideal. And I, and I probably called Marilyn a bunch of times along the way. You know, if you wanna see me flustered, that would've been an ideal time

Duane Newton 36:30

to

Linoj Samuel 36:31

call. Um, but you know what? Uh, the lab had some incredible, uh, medical lab scientists who had been there for thirty, forty years, and they humored me along the way, you know, and I learned a lot and I grew with them. Sadly, many of them are retired now, but there were some incredible people in the lab that helped me along the way that I still fondly remember. Uh, but also, like you said, a lot of it is, yeah, well, you're hired for your technical expertise, but a lot of it is people skills, right? Being able to connect with people, talk to them, interfacing with the other departments and, and making connections that go beyond the lab, right? That is a huge part of your job. And I think that when I was on s- the CPEP committee, we tried to push that part of it with the fellowship training programs is, you know, engage the fellows not just in the science, but in the people skills. Like, you're meeting with industry people, have the fellows in the room with them. You're meeting with, um, your supervisors for... And it would be-- it, it wasn't... You know, on, on many occasions, I found that that wasn't always the case, that the fellows weren't being involved in, in the administrative stuff, right? And so, um, I think a key part is making sure that... Now, a lot of it you're gonna learn along the way. There's only so much you can teach in two years, right? And this is a job where you learn, you're... the entire of your life. I learned something new today about my, my lab. And so it's-

Duane Newton 37:52

What was that?

Linoj Samuel 37:53

Uh, I'd rather not talk about it. It wasn't, uh, it wasn't what I was happy to give my experience. But-

Duane Newton 38:01

To keep every... protect the innocent and identities.

Linoj Samuel 38:06

Yeah. Um, but I, I think that, you know, y- a lot of it is learning how to connect with people, communicate with them, and building relationships. A lot of the departments were positively imp-- were very positive with the fact that we reached out to them and connected with them 'cause they didn't have those kind of connections before. Um, and so the reason for that is not just for them, it's for you. And I learned so much from my colleagues in other departments and divisions. Um, and, and so I think that's an important part of us growing is if you don't understand what people are doing with the results you generate or how it impacts their work, then you're probably not doing a great job, or you're probably not doing as good a job as you could

Duane Newton 38:46

What about on, on the flip s- you know, if you kind of go more back on the inside of the lab and creating this culture, creating the kind of culture that you, that you wanna have. Um, there's... I like this term, I don't know if you like it or not, but I like the term, um, psychological safety. Like you create, you create an environment, uh, where people feel psychologically, emotionally safe.

Linoj Samuel 39:18

Mm-hmm.

Duane Newton 39:19

Um, where, you know, they can, they feel comfortable bringing up issues, maybe challenging, um, a perspective politely, you

Linoj Samuel 39:29

know?

Duane Newton 39:29

Yeah. What, how, how do you, what, what are the kinds of things that you've done to create that kind of environment, um, in your lab?

Linoj Samuel 39:42

I, I think that I learned very early on that when I think I know all, I have all the answers, that's exactly when I don't know what I'm doing. Um, and so asking questions, listening to people, and a lot of times just listening is, is... It's not just because you're being nice, it's because I'm trying to save my own behind sometimes. And listening gives me a lot of insight on things that are going wrong that need to be fixed. But from the beginning, I, I told folks, "I'm gonna keep my door open. You can walk in anytime." And, and they know that even now, I'll leave my door open whenever I can, um, so they can walk in at any time. We've also had the benefit of being very lean-oriented. So what that means is that if, uh, if someone comes up and says, "Well, we have this problem, we'd like it fixed." And I say, "Well, you know, well, here's what you do. You have the lean training, you create a team, collect the data, and, and you're empowered to fix the problem," right? And that's been a departmental approach, not just mine. But you're empowered to fix the problem. And a lot of times... And we've had people that really step up and grow in leadership skills because they were empowered to fix the problem. And maybe that wasn't necessarily the way I would've done it, but it solved the problem. So part of it is also being, I think, understanding that you don't always have all the answers, but maybe your job is just to facilitate people getting to the point where that answer becomes manifest, right? Um, and, and everything doesn't have to be a quick fix. The quick fix is often a part of the problem. You fix something and then you don't remember to fix it because you didn't look to the data. Remember what we say, the data is the data. You know, you don't have the data, and a lot of times people, they scream out, "There's this huge problem," and you reflect the data and it's not there. But then they're satisfied because they've seen the data themselves and realize, you know what? It's not that big of a deal. But there's times there are things we didn't anticipate, and I think that that's... But it's always asking questions, right? And, and then listening to what the answers people are saying, getting multiple perspectives, um, of it. And understanding maybe you don't always know everything, and that's okay.

Duane Newton 41:36

Mm-hmm. And you're... I think you've, you identified all things that are critical in being open, listening, questioning, being receptive to pe- you know, seeking out and being receptive to others' opinions. Uh, admitting when you don't, you don't know and, and even if you've made, made a mistake or, you know, gone down the wrong path. Uh, and the data will tell you if you've gone down the wrong path. Yeah. So all, all those things. And I think that that's, th- those are really important lessons. And I think that, um- You know, I, I reflect on the time, you know, my time, my 20 or so, 20 plus years in the lab and think about, um, opportunities that I had to do that better and how, um, how I might approach things differently, um, if given the opportunity again, you know, to, to do that. But I, I think that, um- You're You're in, you're in a great place and, and I, I admire the things that you've done so much. And, you know, I think it's You know what, maybe to kind of wrap up a little bit, what do you feel like is left for you to accomplish? You know, what, what do you wanna- Mm what do you want to do? Where do you see yourself going? Um, I don't know where you feel like you are in, on your career continuum timeline, but, um, what are the things that, that continue to interest you or, or challenges that you feel like you haven't taken on yet that you wanna take on?

Linoj Samuel 43:44

Well, first let me say I really appreciate those, those compliments coming from you, Duane. You know, I respect, how much I respect you as a colleague. Um, I've made plenty of mistakes along the way, let's be clear for the record, you know? And most of it is when I think I know what I'm doing and you, you get a little cocky. It's not even the first couple of years. It's later on when you think you You get a little cocky and you start thinking you know what you're doing and you, then you start making snap decisions and you're like, "You know what? Shouldn't have done that." Um, it's always, always, always a good idea to wait, think, you know, step back from the, from the situation and, and, and get o- other perspectives on it, you know? Um, and, and so that, that's, uh, that's, it's always a learning process. Um, as far as where to go, um, I mean, I just wanna make sure for, for the record, as of this recording, I'm still in, in my 40s. So, uh- So- Uh,

Duane Newton 44:36

I, I don't think, uh, it's gonna take that long to get this up and posted. So you're still gonna be in your 40s.

Linoj Samuel 44:44

Yeah. So, um, it, it's, um, it, it, it's hard, it's-

Duane Newton 44:48

Early career. Your early career.

Linoj Samuel 44:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I don't think I'd say that anymore. Yeah. Definitely mid, mid-career. But I think that that's always a question that's, that's challenging, right? I, I think that, um, you ask yourself the same question. And-

Duane Newton 45:03

I did. I, that's exactly when I started thinking about these things. Like, what-

Linoj Samuel 45:09

Yeah

Duane Newton 45:10

and I, and I started questioning when I f- at that point, for me, and I'm not s- I'm not trying to put this on you, but I think, you know, back, it was, it was exactly the time when I started thinking, you know, there is m- I feel like there's more for me to do. I don't know exactly-

Linoj Samuel 45:27

Right

Duane Newton 45:28

what it is. And, you know, that was the topic of, uh, you know, the first episodes of the podcast, was talking about that whole process. But, you know, for you- Yeah like where are you, where are you-

Linoj Samuel 45:38

You know, and I've had the privilege of serving on CPEP, on, on CPHMC with ASM, and being engaged in a lot of stuff, but that, my term on that committee is coming to an end now, so the question really is what do I do now? And I think that the older you get the, the harder it is to really push yourself to enter spaces that are new. Because- You know, when you're younger, you need those spaces, but when you're settled and in a career that's got a, sort of a solid trajectory, you're like, "Well, I don't know if I need to do that." And I think that it's important to keep challenging yourself, and some things will work out, some things won't. Um, and I think I can definitely say this institution's challenging me in many ways because we've got, you know, we've got our, uh... We're, we're aligned with Michigan State University. We- we're merging multiple hospitals. On some level you're like, "You know what? I'm getting too old for this." But at another level, I think that the challenge is what keeps you going. Um, so I don't know if I have the answer to your question. I, I think that, you know, at some level we're all still figuring out where we need to go, whether that's here or, or, or in a different role. Like I... You know, we're getting more into research and, and more into, uh, other administrative roles, some of which you're like, "Th- is this really what I wanna do?" And, and you might think that this is what you wanna do or don't wanna do, but some, some of those things you won't know until you try

Duane Newton 46:56

them.

Linoj Samuel 46:57

Mm-hmm. And that's okay. And some of those things you try and they won't work out, and some of them will. Um, I really, I mean, I really at some level would love to get back into having a global perspective on things, being involved in that. You know, my, my original interest was in, was in global infectious disease and clinical microbiology, and how that happens I have no idea. Um, but, uh, I'd love to be able to give back a little bit more, you know, of what I, I, I took benefit of.

Duane Newton 47:26

So that, um, the field is really changing and, you know, some of it is we're being-- it's being put upon from external forces. Um, but I think from a positive standpoint, the relationships that we have with industry, uh, and the number of clinical microbiologists that are on the inside of, you know, product development on the industry side is at the highest it's ever been. And, um, I think that's, that's certainly an area where you personally and Henry Ford as an institution has really grown and developed and, and shined. Shined? Shoned? Shined. Um, shined brightly in that. And, um, and these companies are all, you know, they're global organizations too. And, uh, like, I think that's, that's always been, you know, it's been a, a little bit of a behind the curtain kind of part of our profession that is, um, much more, much more open and, uh, interactive and collegial and... Not that it ever wasn't, but I think, you know, just for the, the reasons that, that I said that, you know, I see that, that transition over the last several years has been pretty strong. And, um, how, how do you see that? Those kinds of interactions, um, shaping or, or impacting you, um, or attracting you?

Linoj Samuel 49:08

Yeah, I think that there's-- it's really good to see a lot of CPEP fellows or CPEP-trained ABMM-certified individuals now in industry. That... You know, I think when you and I were starting out, that wasn't the case. Um, and, um, and, and so, uh, not that there were fantastic people in industry, but there's so many more now, and I think the indus-the companies are better off for it. I think they have a better ear to what the community is saying, what the clinical needs are, and a better handle on product development. And I think that it's fantastic to see how well some of our colleagues are doing in the industry space. Some of them made the transition later in their careers as well. So I think, uh, it, it's also opened the doors for, for collaborations that are really meaningful, you know. And I think where you're doing some real science and, and some really interesting stuff. Um, and so it's opened more opportunities for CPEP fellows or ABMM-certified individuals to, to really grow in another capacity. So it's, it's really good to see that. I think that, you know, some of the trends, you know, we've sadly seen cuts in public health funding. Um, and so that's been... We've seen some loss of positions there, and so hopefully industry can compensate for that. Um, but, uh, you know, and I think that there are some concerns. I think with the future, we're seeing this greater lab consolidation. We don't know what that means. Um, and it is an area of growing concern. What happens with the increasing sort of, um, consolidation or corporatization of clinical microlabs? What does that mean for the future? What does that mean for innovation? What does that mean for patient care? What does that mean for the next pandemic? We don't know. Uh, and I think we all have a role, we all have a voice in how that develops. And I think it's, yeah, it's important to do your day job and, and, and, uh, and, and, and be involved, engaged there. But I think that we all have a stake in how things develop in this, uh, field. And I think w-with more development engaged

Duane Newton 51:04

The, um, last question I'll ask you Is, is something I ask. I, I think I've asked everybody that I talk to. Um, and it's not, you know, what would you do differently, but it's if you had a message for your younger self, you know, the teenage, high school, you know, going... or maybe college or wherever, you know, whatever age you pick. You know, what would you go back and tell young Linoj, whatever version of young Linoj that, um, you care to, that needs to hear from, um, 40-something Linoj?

Linoj Samuel 51:41

Yeah.

Duane Newton 51:42

What would you tell that guy? I

Linoj Samuel 51:42

think, um, you know, I like your analogy when you, you know, when you step back and look at your life, you know, there, there's a, there's a steady cur- you know, there's a steady growth that you see. But in that moment, you're looking at the dip, right? Uh, it's like the stock market. You know, you, you, you keep buying and selling, you're always gonna lose out. You're trying to play the market, and it never works out. You hold for long term ideally, right? You hope. And so it's, it's... in that moment, things might be difficult, challenging, or not a great p- outlook. I think that you have to really, uh, have the long-term perspective, be committed, work hard, um, connect with people, rely on others, you know. And, and I think that, uh, and if you're in a position to strengthen or support somebody else, do that, you know. I think a lot of folks would benefit. You may not think so, that others would benefit from your support, but you cannot understate... I cannot understate what value you can give to somebody else. You don't have to be, um, a... someone who's at the pinnacle of their career to strength- to lift up other people. You can do it all the way along the way, and there's... don't, don't give up those opportunities. Like I said, I benefited from that. Another thing I would say is that, to anyone out there is really, you don't have to be the smartest person in the room or the most qualified, um, and, and you can still accomplish a lot. Uh, and you know, and I think that, um, I, I'm still, I still feel like I'm scratching the surface. I feel like there's so much that, that could be done. And again, all, all of it because of the support of so many people who are far more capable and smarter. Uh, I was even in my graduate school lab, I was probably the, the... not the smartest person there as well, right? Uh, I'm not, I'm not being falsely humble here. I'm just stating the facts here. I'm saying that you can be persistent and, and get through and do a lot of things just by being available, being intentional, and in the role that you have, being responsible, right? Yeah. We see so many people step into roles and just... then, then just not doing anything with it, you know? And that's the biggest frustration I often come across.

Duane Newton 53:51

There's so many... You maybe stated it, uh, another way. There's so many, um, different attributes that bring value to, you know, the role that you're in, the path that you're on. And yes- You know, book smarts or, you know, technical competence is, is a component of that. But there are, there are so many other things that you bring to the table that, that, you know, you've shared with us today that, um, make you, you know, the outstanding person that you are. And I am super, super grateful to have had the time to chat with you, and for others to get to hear, um, hear about that too and experience it. And I'm also grateful to have had you, not just as a colleague, but as a friend. And I enjoy immensely every opportunity that we have, uh, to get together. I think, you know, this might be the first time we had a laugh about something. Maybe we did laugh earlier. I'll have to go back and check the tape. But, you know, I always laugh when I'm with you two, and, um, and you're, you're a super cool dude, and I, I appreciate you, Linoj. Thanks for being on here.

Linoj Samuel 55:09

Oh, thanks, Duane. And I think that you're one of those people that did support me over the years, and I think that that value is interaction. I, I think the last thing I would say, um, and, and you know, you've encouraged so many of us. I know you have. And so I think you're a role model in that regard. Um, I, I think the other thing I would say is that i- in the end, the science is still an important part of who we are and what we do, right? And I would be remiss if, and then if... Or, or like Marilyn would be haunting if I didn't say the data's the data and let that drive it all, right? Again, I, I think in the end, whether it's in your administrative role or you're doing, you're doing good science. And I've seen this many times, people lose focus on, and yet what we are, we are still scientists, right? And I think it's important to let the data drive your decision-making. And I've seen people lose focus on what we're here to accomplish, right? Uh, and what is your goal? It's to do the right thing by the patient and, and making sure that there's good science backing it up. Mm-hmm.

Duane Newton 56:11

That's... Uh, I can't say anything better than what you just said, and I won't try. And that's a great way to wrap it up, and I think that'll be the title of this episode, The Data Is The Data. Thanks again, Linoj. Thank you. And, uh, uh, chat, chat with you again soon. If you're enjoying Navigating Your Path, please be sure to like or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to directly connect with me, you can reach out via my podcast email, which is listed in the description of this episode. It also contains the links to the podcast website and YouTube channel where you can check out more of my content. Feel free to reach out if you'd like to share any comments or even make suggestions about future topics to discuss. I'd also love to hear from you if you have suggestions for people for me to interview or even if you'd like to be interviewed by me. You can also contact me if you'd like to learn more about what it is that I do as a professional development coach. I look forward to having you join me next time. Take good care.