Duane Newton 0:06

Hi, welcome to Navigating Your Path. My name is Duane Newton. In this episode, I get to chat with a good friend and colleague, Dr. Marie-Claire Rowlinson. Many of you know Marie-Claire from her public health roles with APHL, the Wadsworth Center, and most recently as the chief of the Bureau of Laboratories for the state public health lab in Florida. She's recently made the pivot to industry, where she's taken a medical advisor role with bioMerieux. Today, we talked about how her early life shaped her passion for getting away from where she grew up in London to explore not only the UK, but areas around the globe to broaden her experiences. This gave her a chance to fulfill her desires to learn more about different people, places, and cultures. She described a key lesson from these experiences, particularly from her trips to Africa, that material possessions were really not the key to happiness. Marie-Claire shared some encouraging words she received from a trusted mentor as she embarked on her first job, words she didn't completely believe but really needed to hear. She also discussed her recent transition to industry and how she's learning to maintain her professional identity, maintain the relationships she's developed over her career, and also the value of the support she's received from her colleagues in the process. For those of you watching the video version of this episode, I, I had a little technical snafu. Maybe it would also be really an improvement. I messed up the setup so that you'll get the pleasure of seeing only Marie-Claire's face and not mine through most of the episode. You shouldn't suffer at all from that, though. I hope you enjoy this conversation that I had with Marie-Claire Rowlinson I was thinking about, um- Realizing when we really had the first opportunity to talk with each other was at the First Coast meeting in Jacksonville a couple y- like, was that, I guess it was '23

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 2:30

24- 24

Duane Newton 2:32

Was it January-

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 2:33

No, was it '23?

Duane Newton 2:34

Hmm. Yeah, a couple-

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 2:36

I'm thinking '20... Oh, okay. Yeah, you're right. It... I'm thinking '24.

Duane Newton 2:43

I, I, you know what? I, you're right because I had, uh, I had left Bio-Rad, and I was, um, I was fully into my coaching development. And so yeah, January of '24. And it's really funny, I think, you know, that certainly I knew your name and your reputation, but I realized that, you know, we hadn't really had any real conversations with each other. And- And j- you know, two years later, it's like I feel like we've known each other forever. And it's just, it was just interesting, like when you find people that you really connect with, that, that, um... That's how it's, you've made me feel, and I, I appreciate that. It's really cool to have that, um, have developed that kind of a friendship in, in such a short period of time. So thanks for being you.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 3:48

And thanks for- No, I agree. I, I knew your name too, but... And I'm, I'm sure we'd seen each other at meetings but had not really properly connected.

Duane Newton 3:57

Yeah.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 3:57

Um, and I loved your talk at First Coast that year. And then, um, I gave you a running route.

Duane Newton 4:07

That's right. You gave me a r- uh, I went for a run the next day around the river, and, uh, it was a little toasty even in January, but it, it was great. So I think, you know, bonding in, uh, microbiology and career development and running, so lots of things that we shared.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 4:32

Definitely. I,

Duane Newton 4:33

I, um, I appreciate your willingness to, to come on and, and chat, and, um, give me a chance to learn even more, uh, about you and share that with others. I think, you know, the thing that I'm really dying to hear more about is, you know, your early days and your background and where you grew up and, and coming from the UK. Um, I think I'm a Anglophile. I, I love the UK and, um, the culture and the history and the sports. And so I'm just kinda interested in, um, maybe you can just start by saying, you know, where you grew up and how you got here.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 5:20

Yeah, definitely. Um, I grew up in London, and I was, I think, always sort of interested in science. I, I actually had this conversation this last weekend with some, some friends, um, and I was explaining that when I was at school, I was always so envious of my dad because my dad's a violinist. He was a violinist with the London Symphony Orchestra.

Duane Newton 5:51

Wow.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 5:52

And I was like, "Wouldn't it be amazing to be talented at one thing, just be so brilliant at one thing?" And I always used to get at school, "She's a good all-rounder." And it was funny because my dad would say to me, "No, I, I wanted to be an all-rounder, but I was just good at this one, one thing." So it's funny how, you know, when you, you're not one way, you want to be the other. You want to be the other. Um.

Duane Newton 6:19

Yeah.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 6:21

Um, I also always wanted straight hair. Um-

Duane Newton 6:26

I was gonna... I, I was gonna... That was the thing that, that came to my mind was people with curly hair want straight hair and vice versa, so.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 6:34

Yeah. Um, so I, uh, I was, I, I guess, a good all-rounder, but I was interested in science, particularly biology. And I, I do think sometimes it's luck of the draw, right? You get an amazing teacher, um, or an amazing mentor that somehow seems to point you in the right direction and... So I had a biology teacher. I was about 17. I was thinking about university and college courses, and she said, "I think you would love microbiology." Um, and s- isn't that amazing? At 17. Um, and so I, I did. I did a degree in medical microbiology at the University of Newcastle, which is way up north in England, almost Scotland, and, um, I loved it. Uh, I had a parasitology professor as part of that course, and I just thought his, his teaching and his energy was so infectious. Do you get that? And, um, and so then I, I... then I had decided I wanted to p- pursue a PhD in parasitology, and that's what I did. I, uh, I did... And, and during that time as well, during my undergraduate, I did an internship at the London School of Hygiene Tropical Medicine over one summer. And then I went to do a PhD in molecular parasitology at University of Nottingham. And I, I think as I was coming to the end of it, I realized that when you do, you know, do basic research like that and you, you c- carry on and then hopefully you get tenure, and then you're a PI and you're always looking for grants. And, ooh, two things about it. One is that constant struggle looking for grants, especially parasitology was not a particularly well-funded area. Um, and, uh, also that you don't really have that connection with, with people. Uh, it's very much you're in the lab doing your research and I- Mm-hmm sort of felt like I wanted to, I guess, have more of a direct impact, uh, in what I was doing

Duane Newton 9:13

I think that theme or I n- I know that theme has been consistent w- with, uh, many of the folks that I've talked to where you kind of y- we come up in this basic science environment and, you know, for different reasons, but similarly felt, you know, there's a disconnect between, you know, what's required to be successful in there and what really, um, matters to us or is important or we value or, you know, is aligned with our authentically the direction that we wanna go. And whether we're articulating at the ti- at, at the time in that way. But, you know, that's, that's been a, a consistent, um, thing. And I, I wanna, I wanna, um, I wanna come back to that, you know, com- coming to that realization. But, you know, there's, there's a lot more, uh, stuff that you kind of skip by that I think I'm, I'm curious, you know, how it impacted you or shaped you. You know, first of all, I had, I had a similar experience, um, in high sch- wh- when I was in high school. A science teacher who I really respected and, and I think I wanted to impress and, you know, um, got me more interested in biology, and so that was always something. And I, and I-- So that, that was very influential. But I, I also had another area, things that I was thinking about from a career standpoint that really intrigued me, but I didn't have any role models or mentors or any w- any guidance on how to pursue that, and I... So I abandoned it. You know, and so I'm curious as to whether you had, you know, a plateful of things that you were thinking about and microbiology hit because you had this one person that you connected with. Or, or was it, you know, was it really, was it kind of a blank slate that, um- was shaped and influenced by, by this person that you really connected with?

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 11:46

No, I d- I definitely wanted to do something science, potentially medically oriented. So she had kind of prep- she was like, "Oh, maybe immunology." Um, but then she really, but she, she was a biology teacher and she said, "I, I really think you'll like microbiology." And so I looked into that and I was like, yes, because there's also that medical side to it, right? Um-

Duane Newton 12:13

Mm-hmm. Well, where did that, where, where did the, the origin of, of that, you know, just that interest, do you remember where that came from?

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 12:22

Well, I, I do remember being... I was probably about the same timeframe. I was 17. Um, my sister was living in Tanzania and I went to visit her. And, um, when I got back, I got sick. And-

Duane Newton 12:40

Cause when you go to Africa, that's what happens

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 12:46

And it took about four months for them to figure out that I had giardia And so I was kind of, I s- I guess that kind of piqued my interest in parasitology even before that amazing teacher at university, because I was like y- I was just fascinated by this whole thing and c- sort of like the process and why it takes so long, and public health and global health. So I mean, maybe that planted a seed as well. Um, I just think it's sort of a combination of things and, and life sort of ends up being serendipitous in a way.

Duane Newton 13:25

And what about the, um-

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 13:27

I also watched the film Outbreak, sorry.

Duane Newton 13:29

Ooh. Also, uh, very influential.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 13:36

And I was like, "I wanna be Dustin Hoffman,"

Duane Newton 13:40

obviously. The, um... I think I, I think it's, uh, appropriate to go back and re-watch some of these. Uh, what was the, what was the one that was more, um-

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 13:57

Contagion?

Duane Newton 13:57

Contagion. Yeah, I was blanking on the name. Uh-

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 14:00

Did, did a much better job of accurately portraying things. Depicting

Duane Newton 14:06

it. Well- Um- th- they had great, uh, scientific experts that were, um, consultants on the movie.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 14:14

Yes, and I actually was at CDC probably around the time it was being filmed, but I obviously didn't know this at the time, and I'm in the cafeteria at CDC and I thought, "God, that person looks just like Kate Winslet." And I'm, like, getting my lunch on my tray and she's getting her lunch on her tray, and I thought, "Oh, try to get to the cashier at the same time she does and see if she has an English accent, and then I'll be like, 'Oh my God, are you Kate Winslet?'" Anyway, for some reason I got distracted and I forgot. End of story. And

Duane Newton 14:49

then obviously- I would not have forgot. I'm just saying I would, like, I have a huge crush on her, just, I'm just acknowledging that.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 14:54

But I forgot at the time 'cause she just looked like her. Oh. And then when it came out after the movie that she'd actually spent a significant amount of time at CDC, I was like, "Ah."

Duane Newton 15:05

Ugh.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 15:05

It was her."

Duane Newton 15:06

Oh, my goodness.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 15:09

So, um, my other thing about that movie that I always like to point out is, is the lab people lived and the epidemiologist did not.

Duane Newton 15:21

So

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 15:23

stay in the

Duane Newton 15:24

lab. Stay in the lab. Stay in the lab. G- can, um... I know v- at a very superficial level a little bit about- In New- Newcastle. But it, it, my impression is that, you know, there's a potential for a big culture shock going from London to Newca- Newcastle. Isn't, isn't it more, you know, uh, you, you mentioned much northern climate-wise com- a lot different, uh, more industrial as it, as it turned out? Yeah.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 15:59

Just so- I mean, as, as we like to tease, it's grim up north. Um, but yeah, I mean, um, I wanted to I think I wanted to get a different experience from a London upbringing. I wanted to, in a way, to be as far from home as possible, but still in England. Um- Mm and I had thought about Edinburgh, but interestingly, in the UK, um, the, uh, graduate degrees in Edinburgh are four years long, and they're three years in England. And I thought, "I wanna be done in three." Um, so I mean And that there were a few schools that were good for microbiology, and the interesting thing about Newcastle is it specifically had a medical microbiology track. Um, so yeah. Um, but it, I mean, yes, it was, um, culturally different, but I, I think I enjoy learning about different places and the different foods, and I mean, they have different words for things in Newcastle. I mean, it, it, England is like you don't have to go very far to get a completely different accent, a different word for a food item, and, you know, different, um, uh, way of life. And, uh, it, it, you know, here, I guess in the US, you probably would travel to another state and experience that. But, you know, Newcastle from London is only 300 miles, and- Mm I think it's thr- thr- 300 miles from here in Jacksonville, Florida to Miami, and you're still in Florida.

Duane Newton 17:41

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 17:42

Um, but yeah, so it was, it was, it was good for a lot of reasons. Yeah.

Duane Newton 17:49

I think, um, that's another line of conversation I wanna have, um, today, is that, um, willingness to, to go out and explore and experience and travel, um, you know, partic- you know, from what I've seen on the pr- on the, on the professional side, I suspect that there, that's also on the personal side. But experiencing those different, different countries and cultures and, um- And, you know, the impact that that's had on you and, but also kind of like where did that come from? But, um, I think let's kind of go down the path, you know, that I interrupted you on, um, o- originally where you, you realizing it's time-- you, you're trying to make a pivot and kind of you realize that, um- You know, a basic science track isn't really aligned. How did that, um... What was that process like for you? Was it like, "Oh, God, now what do I do?" Or, "Hmm, let's see, you know, where this takes me"? Or... Mine was a very traumatic experience. Um, so I'm just curious as to how that, uh, how that whole process came to be for you

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 19:18

I, I don't think it was easy. I wouldn't say it was traumatic, but I definitely had that, "I don't want to do basic research. What do I do?" And my, my, um, all of my research, my field work for my PhD was done in Cameroon in, uh, it's not really West Africa, it's just a little bit below West Africa. Um, and so I had definitely, and I think that's sort of like what you're saying, this, this interest in travel, this interest in global health and, and public health, um, very much. So I kind of knew I wanted to do public health, and I, I sort of had this idea that I maybe wanted to train to work in a public health lab, which it's kind of a, a, a different system obviously in, in the UK than to the US. And so I did make some inquiries, and they said in order to be a public health laboratorian in the UK, I needed to have done a different undergraduate degree.

Duane Newton 20:26

Mm.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 20:27

And so it... And I, at this time I had my PhD, or I was about to, to get my PhD, and it would have meant going back to school for another two or three years. Oh. And I just thought I'd... At, at that point, you know, I just thought, "I don't want to do that." And then you're coming in at, like, a lab technologist level in a public health lab, and I just didn't... Anyway, it just, it seemed like a bit of a barrier, and I didn't realize that just having done a science degree didn't set me up-

Duane Newton 20:54

Mm-hmm

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 20:55

for that track. Um, I thought about potentially going into the civil service, um, because they have a ton of labs. Um, sort of the equivalent here would be like DOD labs that we have here, like USAMRIID or something. Um, but that, that was, was also going to be difficult. And then honestly, I have to tell you the truth, Duane I just- That's what

Duane Newton 21:23

we're all about here

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 21:25

I just, I put stuff into Google. I think I put in, like, post-doctoral fellowship bioterrorism public health, and guess what popped up.

Duane Newton 21:37

APHL.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 21:38

CPEP.

Duane Newton 21:39

Oh re- oh, really?

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 21:41

Yes.

Duane Newton 21:43

Oh, wow.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 21:45

And interestingly- Google took you,

Duane Newton 21:47

took, took you that route, huh? That's really interesting.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 21:52

And- I, I love this story too, because obviously I then applied and got into the CPEP program, and I had, um, a fellow post-doc that started at the same time as me, and we'd been there a couple of weeks, and he goes to me, "So are you gonna take the ABMM?" And I was like, "What is that?" And he said like, "Why are you here?" And I'm like, "Well, because I Googled this thing and it looked really exciting." Um,

Duane Newton 22:25

but

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 22:25

s- Who was your

Duane Newton 22:26

co-fellow at the time?

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 22:28

Um, Hank Wang.

Duane Newton 22:30

Okay.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 22:31

Um, but he, he was an amazing person to be co-fellow with. He's, he's an MD, um, immigrated from China, and super smart. And I was just a young 27-year-old that didn't have a clue what I was doing. And so he, he, he, he sort of He was a good person to have, um, the, the experience with. I think we sort of balanced each other out a bit.

Duane Newton 23:03

And so you went to, um You did your training, your CPEP training at UCLA?

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 23:09

Yes. Yes. Um, and I think, I don't know, I think I was just lucky because I look at CPEP programs now and o- obviously w- it, this is 20-plus years later, and I just don't know if I would have had the competitive edge now. Yeah. I mean, I had a basic research PhD. I had never worked in a clinical lab. I mean, I didn't even know what the ABMM was, and so it's not like I was going into the program with this trajectory of I'm going to be a clinical lab director. I, I knew I wa- I knew I wanted to do public health and work in a lab, um, but I do- I don't think I was very aware of this hu- huge opportunity I was being given. Mm. You know? Um-

Duane Newton 23:56

Yeah, it was a different time. I, in, not as many programs. Yeah. Um, competitive but not to the level that it is now. Yeah. And, um, and I, I think, you know, I've had lots of conversations with folks, um- you know, s- students or students of mine when I was teaching that became interested in going down this, you know, recognized during their PhDs that th- they wanted to be more clinically oriented and, and were interested in this. And, you know, I feel like you, you have to have... It's almost like writing a grant where you have to have all the data already in your grant when you submit it, you know, showing that it's gonna work. A- a- and, you know, you have- I feel like folks that are going down this path now, you know, they've, they've had- they've gotta have some connection with a clinical lab, you know, even starting- Yeah as a graduate student. And, um, you know, maybe even going to graduate school at, at institutions where these CPEP programs exist so that you can figure out ways to align, you know, with the laboratory as part of, you know, your projects and, you know, sort of cultivate and sh- and demonstrate this interest and aptitude in the field so that you're, you're coming out with, um, a resume that, you know, demonstrates an interest and an understanding of what you're getting into. Because there's just so many people in there, and it's really tough. Um, I don't, I similarly feel like I don't know, I, I don't know that I would've been able to... You know, with my record at that time, I would not be competitive now.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 25:49

Yeah. Yeah. And I, I only applied to UCLA. So it was like, you either get this- Mm-hmm or, um, i- if I hadn't got it, I mean, then I'd have been back to the drawing board, and it probably would've been more traumatic of seriously, what am I going to do with my life? What's my career trajectory? Mm-hmm. Um, so I, yeah, I, I feel really, um, fortunate to have been given that opportunity. And I, I tell this to people that are applying to CPEP or thinking about CPEP, and I feel, I feel like we've talked about this on Happy Hour, but those two years were the time of my life.

Duane Newton 26:38

Me too.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 26:40

I mean, I just... You, you're working so hard, absolutely. It's not all fun. But I just loved everything that I was learning. I loved the community that was at around clinical and public health microbiology. I just- Totally sort of, I fell in love with this whole, um, field. I was like, I'm so lucky to, to be here. Yeah. It, it was, was really good.

Duane Newton 27:12

Yeah. I, I feel the same way. And, and I, I... It, for a lot of different reasons that I felt like that was my f- my favorite time of my life professionally. Uh, and what I was, what I was able to do, um, you know, the people that I learned from, the environment that I was in, it was just, uh, it was amazing. It had a huge impact on me and, and certainly I think, you know, the person that, you know, my program director, Marilyn, was for me i- influent- It, it's why I'm, I feel compelled and put so much time and energy into doing these kinds of things because, you know, it wasn't just about- the science. It was about the people and the connection. And I think the, you know, first and foremost, you know, the patient connection. But, um, I think that she showed me, you know, e- early on that, um We all can contribute to helping everybody be better and achieve, you know? And so it's like I'm not... I, I had the benefit of You know, being lifted by this huge community of people that were built into the program. And, um, and that has had a huge impact on me and, and, you know, I know, I know that not everybody in their fellowship experience had that kind of community or that kind of support. Um, you know, I'm interested in, you know, can... Who, who were the people along the way for you that you can look back... You know, you, you mentioned your, your, um, biology teacher who introduced you to microbiology and, um, Dr. Google, Dr. Google who introduced you to CPEP programs. Um- Yes, thank you Google. Um, you know, uh, who, who are the people, uh, you know, up to this point in your career that you had that you can look at and say, "Oh, wow, you know, that was a really important relationship for me"?

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 30:02

I... I mean, I look back on my time at UCLA so fondly. I, I think I cried my heart out on my last day. I... All the techs in the lab... I mean, I was, I was... I guess I started at 27, I finished at 29. They... And they were all a bit older and they all felt like my mom, mom and dad.

Duane Newton 30:29

Yeah. I similarly, I had, I had extra moms, you know, uh, uh, that

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 30:35

was true. Oh, and I think they knew 'cause I was away from home. Um- Uh-huh. But, um, Dave, Dave Bruckner was the head of the CPEP program, the UCLA micro director at the time. Um, and he was a... He w- h- his love was parasitology, so I think we kind of bonded over that. Yeah. But he was... He's so calm and so measured as a person, and I really appreciated that, and maybe I sort of appreciated it years later, but the things that he taught me. Um, and I remember me saying to him when I was leaving the program, I was afraid about what I was gonna do next, and I said, "I look at your job and I think there's no way I can, can do that." I, I just didn't feel ready. And he, he would... He wore so many hats above and beyond just being the clinical micro director, and he said to me, "People gravitate towards the things they like and they're good at, and, you know, you can shape a job into what you want it to be based on your strengths. And then you, you can make up the rest of it either with-" you know, your colleagues or whatever. Um, but I thought it was really interesting, um, and it was good, good advice, and it's, it's okay to mold a position i- in a way that suits you, I suppose, rather than going, "I'm gonna go do this and I have to be perfect and put all the, all these different facets." And I think for me as well, and, and, and one of the challenges with CPEP is you become this amazingly brilliant microbiologist, but how do you learn to manage people? How do you learn to think about things like budgets and all the administrative stuff that, yes, you learn some of it, but, um, I mean, that's sort of... Some of that comes with experience and time. Um, but I, I just, I... Anyway, I just didn't feel ready, um, to do that. But, so, um, to go back to your original question, the other amazing person at UCLA was Janet Hindler. Um, and, um, she was so supportive, has been so supportive of me the whole time, and she knew I was interested in public health. So she actually, during my second year of fellowship, I, I was supposed to have two weeks in the public health lab, and I was like, "Not enough, not enough," 'cause, like, I, I want, I want to go into public health after this. Um, so she, um, so she actually arranged so that I could have longer at the public health lab in LA County, and then she sent an email to, um, the state lab in Richmond and said, "Hey, we've got this fellow. They're interested in public health. Is anybody willing to host her for a couple of weeks?" And Ed Desmond is the one person who replied. And so I would say in a way, sort of Ed Desmond is like my original mentor in terms of cementing that idea that I wanted to do public health. And just seeing everything... I mean, LA County was amazing too, um, and learning everything there. Um, but yeah, being at the state lab and seeing all of the things that they did was, was really fascinating.

Duane Newton 34:09

And that's a, um, you know, ultimately I think your pathway into public health and, and kind of leveraging CPEP in that way is relatively unique, um, in- You know, clearly it came from, you know, before you even came over. Um, but there, there're not, there're not many people that have gone in, in, into that, in that direction and really spent their entire careers in public health labs. So, you know, kind of go through what that post-fellowship life has been like and, and, and w- where you worked and the, the places that you've gone. It is, it's really, it's an amazing... You know, just on paper is an amazing, um, roadmap literally of, you know, around the world

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 35:16

Yeah, and I always say it, uh, the road also doesn't, is, is rarely, um, straight, and that's okay. It- you're going to be on this winding road that is your life and career. Um, but I, when I finished my fellowship, I didn't have a job. Well, it was probably a few, few months before finishing, and I didn't have a job. And, uh, Sid Feingold, um, who is This, the, the father of anaerobic bacteriology. Um, and he was part of, he was part of the CPEP program in that he, um, he interviewed the CPEP, um, candidates and was part of that group that, um, looked at, um, at the candidates for the program. And then he had a very close relationship with the UCLA clinical lab because he had a lab, um, at the Los Angeles VA, uh, Medical Center. And so there was a fair amount of lia- liaison between the two labs, and we would collaborate on a couple of projects. And so he knew I was coming to the end of the program and offered me a postdoc in his lab. He said, "Look, come do this whilst you're trying to figure out what your next steps are." And actually, your, your former, um, uh, podcaster, Beth Marlowe, also did a short stint in Sid's lab like me. Um, so I-

Duane Newton 36:57

You guys didn't overlap, but it was like a-

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 36:59

No like

Duane Newton 37:00

a similar experience. Yeah. Okay.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 37:01

Yeah. She, she was at Genprobe by the time I think she was at Genprobe when I started my CPEP fellowship.

Duane Newton 37:11

Right.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 37:11

Um, but w- yeah, one thing I was remiss in saying is that network of CPEP alums from UCLA that also, especially the ones that had stayed in the LA area, were so kind and helpful and supportive with all the new CPEP fellows, helping them navigate examinations and stuff like that, talking about careers. Um, so I, I also owe a lot of thanks to, to their supportive, um, that supportive network that we had. Um, but yeah, so I went to Sid's lab for two years whilst I was trying to figure out how do I get into public health, and I actually ended up getting a position, so sort of stepping out of the lab, and, uh, with the Association of Public Health Laboratories in their global health program. So I wasn't in a lab, I was... It was programmatic work, but sort of building lab capacity in various countries around the world, mostly related to HIV diagnostics, um, supported by the PEPFAR funding. Um, but I have to tell you something else before, before I get into that. So when, when I left Sid's lab, I wrote it down because, um, uh, otherwise I'd forget. So when I, I, I left Sid's lab and he was- he's like one of my fathers launching me, you know. He, he wrote-- He gave me a book about leading ladies, I think that's what it was titled, and he wrote me a card. And I sort of feel like he was telling me off at the same time as wishing me luck. But okay, this is what he said: "I've told you several times you are well-equipped to accomplish absolutely anything you aspire to. You can be a leader on the national and international scene, and the world needs leaders." Cool, huh?

Duane Newton 39:17

I'm, it's giving me goosebumps

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 39:20

So he, he sort of, um, he, he was also very-

Duane Newton 39:24

That's amazing important. Uh, that is really, really amazing that, I mean, you must have felt like you could conquer the world

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 39:37

with- Well, I think I, I think I didn't, and I think that's why he wrote it Yeah I think I was 31 or 32, and I was unsure, and I didn't know what my place was gonna be, and, and, and you can't, you can't imagine yourself 20 years-

Duane Newton 39:53

Yeah

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 39:54

from now being a leader. Um, so, so yeah, but I, I love to look back, look back on that and think about it, yeah. Um-

Duane Newton 40:06

So ta- more like that's, um- that I don't know, uh, is it imposter syndrome or not? I'm, I'm not really sure, but it, you know, this is like Just a lot of uncertainty. Am I prepared? Am I worthy? Am I this? I'm not enough. I- whatever, you know, whatever that negative talk is. You know, I, I don't... In some ways objectively it's like w- w- why are we, why are we doing this to ourselves? Because you've gotten excellent training, you've put, you know, time and energy in. You, you know, you work hard, you're brilliant and, you know, where do, where do you think that came from?

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 41:06

What, the imposter syndrome?

Duane Newton 41:07

Yeah

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 41:12

I, I don't, I don't know. It, it's de- definitely a thing and I, and I, not to be sexist, but I do think women feel it probably more-

Duane Newton 41:24

Mm-hmm

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 41:25

acutely, um,

Duane Newton 41:27

than

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 41:28

men.

Duane Newton 41:28

S- subtle digs, you know, over time accumulate.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 41:32

And I think there's also this, um... And I don't know if it's our profession or if it's personality, but this need for perfection.

Duane Newton 41:42

Mm-hmm. That, yeah, I've had, um... That in and of itself has been something that It, recently I've become acutely aware of the negative impact that, that perfectionism has had on me in my life. And, you know, it's not until... You know, I'm gonna be 60 this year, and I'm, and I'm s- just, I'm just figuring this out, you know that- But the, um- You know, I talked to others ab- about exactly that this week, um, that, you know, our whole, our whole lives, you know, scientific lives making mistakes and errors and, um, imperfection is not something that is supported. It's getting things right and having it all line up and it being clear and, and you know what you're doing, and you have all the answers, and you're the expert. And, you know, there, there hasn't been any space allowed for making mistakes and learning and, um, showing any flaws. And I think- That's one of the things in this chapter of my life that I'm, I want to do a better job of creating spaces where, you know, we can, we can learn from those things that don't always work out exactly the way that we want them to, including for myself You know, but I, I think, uh, that behavior was never modeled to me and that, you know, that, you know, there was always high expectations on the outside, and the expectations I put on myself were like- 100% even higher.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 44:01

Yeah. And I also think I always thought those expectations were internal, or at least I wanted to say, "Oh, is this... I've done this thing. Is this now... I've, I've got a PhD. Is it good enough? I've done a postdoc and passed the ABMM. Is it good enough?" And I think I thought a lot of those expectations were external, which maybe a little bit they were, but I had to realize for myself, no, I put a ton of pressure and expectation on myself.

Duane Newton 44:33

Mm-hmm.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 44:35

And, and I think as I, as I get older, I'm just trying to give myself a little bit more grace there-

Duane Newton 44:47

Mm-hmm

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 44:47

instead of this constant pressure of sort of have I done enough? I- i- is it good enough? Um, so yeah. I think, I think a lot of us struggle with that. I,

Duane Newton 45:01

um, I know that a, a lot of mine came from- Um, the people-pleasing aspects of my personality that, you know, were ingrained at a very young age. And so I couldn't make mistakes because I was gonna disappoint other people. I couldn't not meet these expectations because this is what... You know, I was worried about what they were gonna think about me. And so I... And I s- It, it's taken just within the last couple of years that I, that, that connection in my brain has been made, you know, what, where this c- where this came from. And, um, it, it's hard to um, generate that kind of, you know, generate appropriate validation internally in You know, and see your own value and recognize and celebrate that and, and give yourself the credit that you deserve. And it's easy, it's easy to say, "Don't worry about what other people think." Um, but it's not that y- you're ignoring it, but it- that you can, you can recognize all those things that Sid saw in you too- right? That you can see it in yourself.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 46:39

Yeah. And I suppose at that, at that time I couldn't, but in- Mm-hmm in hindsight I know. I guess that's exactly it. He c- he was trying to encourage me. So that's why I'm saying it was almost like he was telling me off. Um, 'cause he's like, "I've told you many times," you know?

Duane Newton 46:59

You're not listening to me. So-

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 47:05

Um, and I don't know if I was a people ple- pleaser, but there's this, this idea of like proving to everyone that- Mm I can do this thing or I can achieve this success. And I, I think, uh, but I don't think giving myself that advice, you know, 30 years ago would maybe necessarily have changed anything. I think it, and, you know, we're all getting older. It, it- some of that just, it comes with age- Mm and experience and reflection, which, I mean, I wasn't really into doing that in my 20s and 30s. Yeah. You're just out there- Yeah you know?

Duane Newton 47:46

Yeah. Yep. Where did, um... I can imagine that that programmatic position that you got at APHL, um, that there, that your attractiveness as a candidate had a lot to do with the things that you did in your experiences in the field, quote unquote. But, you know, your n- your willingness and ability and knowledge and experience in going to other countries and engaging with people, um, at their level was influential in their, in their decision, and also influential in your decision to kind of pur- pursue that. So, you know, talk a- talk about, you know, kind of- How that has, that seems to be a common thread in, you know, your post-fellowship professional life where, you know, particularly around APHL, but I'm not sure, you know, in other activities. But you've been involved in a, in a lot of these capacity building kinds of endeavors over time that have taken you all over the world. And I'm really curious as to, you know, how, where did that fire inside of you come from and h- you know, how d- how did that How did you come about that?

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 49:20

I I

Duane Newton 49:24

think- Did you guys travel when you were a f- y- you know, globally as a family? Did you-

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 49:30

Not really.

Duane Newton 49:31

Uh-huh.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 49:31

No. Um, we went to France a lot, and we would drive and take the ferry, take our car on the ferry and then drive. God, it probably used to take, like, a day to get there. That used to be, like, our, our thing. But, um, I went... I think I mentioned earlier, I went to... My sister was teaching in Tanzania- Mm-hmm for a year, and I went to stay with her for, like, I think I went for six weeks. It was amazing. She lived in this really remote, um, village outside of Moshi in, in Tanzania. And I think- Well, I think there's a couple of things. One is you can recognize that there is a health need and, and why global health is important and access to healthcare is so important. But I think the other thing I saw was people with very little that had such happiness from the small things in their lives, and it just puts everything into perspective. We have so many material things, but And I, I obviously, I li- I live in the US and I probably live a materialistic lifestyle, but probably back when I was 17, I was like, "We really don't need these things to make us happy." What makes us happy is family, is connection, is, is joy in the small things. Um, being thankful for the food that we have to eat, being thankful for the roof that we have over our he- heads. Um, and I don't know. I, I think I, I fell in love with, with Africa in, in that visit. And so when I got to do my field work in Cameroon, I went back several times to Cameroon during, um, my PhD, and I equally loved that experience. And obviously with that, with my PhD, we were going out seeing patients, um, collecting samples, doing testing. Um, and it wasn't Some of it was diagnostic, but then we were taking the samples to use for our, our research studies, and yeah, that was also amazing. So, and I'm, I'm sure that APHL when, uh, when they saw I'd had all this experience I also lived in Namibia during my gap year. So end of school to start of my undergraduate degree, I taught at a school in very rural, uh, northern Namibia. So I think they just knew I think global health isn't for everyone 'cause you can't necessarily always put somebody in And sometimes the situations aren't always comfortable. Maybe you're hot, maybe the sleeping accommodations aren't ideal, like you don't speak the language. Um, you but you have to be culturally aware and culturally respectful. So it I think being able to navigate all of those things in, in different environments and cultures is, is, uh, a skill that you probably have to, have to learn. But I think having had those experiences prior to going to APHL probably helped.

Duane Newton 52:54

And how, um, you, you over time, you know, continued that pathway into, uh, uh, in the public health arena into, um, state health departments in Florida and, and New York and back to Florida again. So can H- how, um- Can you talk about kind of, uh, from an emotional standpoint or, or maybe a professional standpoint, how, you know, those meshed together, you know, that experience a- and in Af- or your experiences in Africa over the years, um, and your interest in public health and kind of how that shaped, um, what you tried to accomplish, you know, as a, as a state public health lab director?

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 54:00

I, I think it means you sort of always have this Uh, uh, this global perspective, which I think is really important, and the, the perspective that every person matters, every patient matters, um, no matter where they are, and why, l- we, we talked a bit about it earlier, but why access to care is so important for everybody.

Duane Newton 54:30

Mm-hmm.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 54:30

And, um, I, I mean, I loved the work I did at APHL, but I also realized I wasn't really using my board certifications as they should be. And I was like, okay. Took, took me f- six years, but I was like, I finally feel ready to be a lab director, which is why I then made that move to, to Florida. But I do I do think I, I learned a great deal from that work at APHL. I mean, learning, one, about public health labs, um, not just in the US, but what do public health labs look like in other countries. And I also... It, it sort of developed some of my administrative skills, too, like with managing programs, budgets, people. It- just interacting with people. When you're having to go into another country and interact with the Ministry of Health and say the right things It, that's a, a, a good experience. It's a good learning experience

Duane Newton 55:36

Mm-hmm. Do you have any exa- good examples of, uh, maybe having to learn from, uh, learn from mistakes? W- do you have any good anecdotes on-

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 55:51

Yeah

Duane Newton 55:52

cultural and unawareness? Um, so

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 55:57

one of the countries that I, I manage for APHL was Ukraine, and I, I don't, I don't believe I'd been to Eastern Europe before, so, um And very culturally different from the African countries that I had been to, and, and Haiti was one of the other countries I worked in. Very different. And we were there to do a training, and we started it, and w- and everyone's, like, stony-faced. And, and we're, like, half an hour into the training, and one of the people puts, puts their hand up, and they go, "Why are we doing this? I, I don't wanna do this. We've done this before. Nothing happens. Like, this is a waste of our time." Um, so yeah, I mean, you have to, you have to roll with the punches. So we sat down with them and talked to them and go, "What are the things you are interested from learning from us?" And they told us, and I think we went back to our hotel that night and worked for, like, six hours retooling all of our presentations to better meet their needs. But I think I also realized Um, that getting buy-in from people in One country isn't gonna be the same as getting by in f- it, it, it took a little bit longer. It took sort of different ways of communicating, um, with, uh, the colleagues in Ukraine. But, um, Ukraine is one of my, my favorite places. Am- amazing place and people

Duane Newton 57:48

Uh, I think that that's, um, it's an excellent point, and I've listened to some, uh, podcasts from folks in the business community that talk about, uh, cultural differences in different countries and how interactions, like awareness of these differences can imp- improve interactions and, and make those business relationships better be- you know, how, um, how, uh- You know, the things or approach a group of Germans say is different from the way the group of Italians would approach things and, you know, how they would run their day versus how we would expect to see our day go. You know, it's different. And if you're not getting out, um, and seeing and experiencing that, you know, you have this perception that, you know, this is the-- this-- the way we do things is the only way that things get... are done or approaches that need to be taken and, um, very close-minded. And, and, you know, another similar conversation, you know, when, when Beth and I talked, uh, are growing up in, you know, military families and, you know, ha-having some exposure to other environments and, and people I think is very, um, impactful, especially as a young person. So you were at, um- Your public health lab director, you know, associate director, assistant director in Florida, and then Wadsworth and then back to Florida. You know, that span was, was that a 10-ish years or so,

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 59:47

eight-ish years? I was about, I was about 10 years, just shy of 10 years in Florida as the assistant director in Jacksonville. And I, and I have to mention that when I, I took the job in Jacksonville, it was under Max Salfinger, and he's a big TB person, mycobacteriology expert. And so because people always ask me sort of why I love TB and why I ended up doing so much TB, and I was like, "Because Max hired me," and I, and I had to. Um, and then

Duane Newton 1:00:24

it's funny because-

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:00:25

Another

Duane Newton 1:00:25

impactful person in your career, right?

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:00:28

100%, because he... That's when I, when I started in Jacksonville in 2012, and I was... He told me to focus a bit on TB because, um, there was stuff going on in the lab. Um, and I ended up loving TB and, and loving the whole community around TB. The, the TB clinicians in Florida, the nurses, the whole program, how the lab fit into that, how important those relationships are. Um, yeah.

Duane Newton 1:01:04

I, um, one of the people that I am lining up to chat with on this is my, um, my PhD advisor, who remains a, a really good friend of mine. And I think folks, you know, I wonder if- Um You know, Sid Feingold or Max Selfinger or my PhD advisor, Bob Kearns, can truly appreciate, or your biology teacher

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:01:50

The impact they had

Duane Newton 1:01:51

The, the impact that the, that the time and effort that they put into us And how that totally changes the trajectory of your life because that person you know, took that time, showed that interest, put, you know, put you under their wing. And I'm sure that they You know, they had hundreds of students or fellows that they interacted with in their career. I mean, maybe even thousands And, you know, this, you're, you know, you're an example of you got into TB because Max was such a presence and person for you, and that's why I got into microbiology and infectious disease and had this clinical s- slant because Bob Kearns did the same thing for me as a, when I was a graduate student, you know? And it, it just- I, I think now we're in this position where we can have that kind of impact on people and, you know, the willingness to take the time and share and coach and, you know, just even answer questions sometimes. Like, you never know what that's gonna do to people. And I've been fortunate to have, um, you know, students or former employees come up to me and say, "You know, I remember this time where you told me this," and that, that really stuck with me, and that was really important. And I, you know, honestly don't remember having that conversation, but It means a lot that, um, that it had that kind of impact, and I think, you know, this is, these kinds of conversations, um, are another way to share that information and, and, and connect with people. Um, so I, I just found it, just a little sidetrack on what you said about Max, is how it, how I experienced, I experienced that too at a different point in my life. So it's really impressive.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:04:33

Yeah, and it, um, it is interesting that Ed Desmond, who was at the California State lab at the time, is also a TB lab expert, and he had been that first mentor that had said, "Yes, you're a fellow and you wanna do, you wanna be a public health lab director? Great." And so I'm sure Ed was also very happy that I, I ended up, um, really appreciating the field of TB, uh, diagnostics, treatment, all of, all, all of those things. Um, and actually, you know, I, I had the honor of presenting Ed and Max with lifetime achievement awards at the recent APHL TB meeting. And so they asked me to present it, and I was like, "I don't know if I can do it, 'cause I might just be, like, bawling my eyes out for the- For the whole thing. I m- I managed not to, but yeah. So it was pretty cool to s- stand next to these two people that had been so instrumental in shaping me into who I am in my career, supporting me, mentoring me. And, uh, it was interesting what you said about that that takes time, and they were willing to give their time for that. Um, and, and I, I think it, it ends up being important and in- in, and shows you that it's important to give back. So at this point, you know, when people, uh, reach out to me with, for career advice or, "Hey, I'm interested in public health. How do I get into public health? Hey, you did CPEP. What did that process look like?" I think it's important to invest in those people, because that's the next generation of clinical and public health leaders.

Duane Newton 1:06:37

Mm-hmm. But what it, you know, when you're having those conversations now, and w- what are you telling folks? 'Cause I think, you know, that's something that I'm curious to hear your perspectives on. And what, what are the things that are exciting and inspiring and also, you know, challenging and troublesome about a career in public health? I think, you know, a lot of us understand what those things are in, you know, in a clinical environment, an academic medical center environment, and we're pretty familiar with that, and maybe not as familiar with opportunities and challenges down on the public health side. W- what, what are you telling folks that are asking those questions of you?

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:07:32

It's a very rewarding field, and I'm obviously passionate about public health. I'm always getting up on my public health lab soapbox whenever I can.

Duane Newton 1:07:44

Well, you're on it now, so- consider, like you have, you have the soapbox

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:07:50

Step up. So I mean, and, and The impact of what the public health lab does is so important, so broad. And if you, if you have a passion for that, I think it's a very rewarding career. I mean, you get all of the interesting things, right? The emerging infectious diseases, the bioterrorism. Um, you have exciting programs like newborn screening, which, okay, maybe as a microbiologist is a new thing to you. But there are all these, um, public health lab programs that I find fascinating. Um, so I think the, the s- the science of it and, um, obviously the importance of public health, um, are- There's a great

Duane Newton 1:08:48

diversity of i- i- in our space. Th- there's a huge amount of diversity of s- science, biology, um, technology that, you know, is e- even, even more than what you would get in a clinical environment.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:09:05

Y- yes, definitely. And I mean, just to look at things like next-generation sequencing, every state lab performs next gen sequencing and has all of that technology and expertise. Um, so it is, it is an exciting environment where I think maybe people didn't historically it hasn't been thought of that way, um, that we are at cutting edge of technology. But, um, but obviously public health comes with challenges. Um, the, the Money in the public health sector is, you know, budgeting obviously is an issue. And so I know that, um You don't go into public health for the salary.

Duane Newton 1:10:05

Yeah.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:10:06

You gotta love it. Um, and-

Duane Newton 1:10:08

From a funding standpoint, like, what percentage of, roughly, when you're in Florida, what percentage of your budget came from the state versus through grants and cooperative agreements from, you know, I guess primarily the federal government?

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:10:30

Yeah, CDC for the most part. Um, a handful of others. But it, it does fluctuate, and obviously I think that's the other thing that public health challenges, that it, it is swayed by politics and, and also swayed by events, right? So you have something like COVID and then you have a huge injection of federal funds, um, but then you might go through spells where you don't have anything. Um, but for Florida, I think about 35% of the lab's budget came from what we call general revenue, so given by the state. And the other 65% of the budget was either federal funds or money that we made through, um, billing for tests, through test reimbursement. And it, it really varies hugely state to state. So I went to Wadsworth. Wadsworth doesn't bill for anything, but they get a m- much more state, uh, funding. And then you have other states that are expected to be fully self-funded, no state funds. So it, it really does vary a lot depending on the state, how it's run, the politics of that state government, and obviously politics of the federal government also tends to sort of dictate how things are, how budgets are, uh, what, what are you testing for. I mean, it's Yeah.

Duane Newton 1:12:06

I, I think, you know, it, there may not be a tremendous amount of awareness or, or complete awareness, but I think just to reinforce that, you know, regardless of what state you're in, a significant portion of that is through competitive funding mechanisms that you're, you're applying for grants. You're trying to develop, um, agreements, you know, cooperative agreements with CDC on particular areas of interest for, for you and them, and you're competing, um, you're competing for that funding. And that, you know, it, it just, I think it puts a, um- It, the, the light that's shining on that is different to me. Or when, when you shine that light like that on it, you realize how difficult it is to be a- to be in that space and, and, you know, you're actually kind of back in the life that you wanted to get You didn't want to be in in the first place from a basic science standpoint.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:13:21

That's funny. Didn't realize that. Yeah.

Duane Newton 1:13:24

Yeah. Um- I didn't realize that either until I just, I just s- I just said it, and I'm like, "Oh, what?" You really wouldn't do that. Thanks. Yeah.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:13:32

Well, and, and obviously I'm not there now. But, um, I In talking to clinical lab colleagues, I feel that all labs are being squeezed.

Duane Newton 1:13:44

Mm-hmm.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:13:45

It's not just the public health lab. There's always, like, the bottom dollar, right?

Duane Newton 1:13:49

Yeah. There's some pressure from some source that, you know, that it's competitive, you know, n- no matter where you are.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:13:58

Yeah. And, and so And I think those challenges aren't u- unique to public health, and same with workforce. Yes, maybe the pay is slightly d- better in the private sector, but I think clinical labs are also struggling to hire. I mean, so I think our whole, um, clinical and public health microbiology feel- field struggles with these budgetary things and reimbursement for tests if you are charging for them. And, um, can you sort of break even, and how can you, how can you be more efficient? Um, so I know that, that, that obviously clinical labs don't really have the, for the most part, that clinical, uh, that, um, cooperative agreement, um, opportunity. But, um, but yeah, I think sometimes we, we are s- struggling with the same problems.

Duane Newton 1:14:55

Mm-hmm. Just, um- It's still a circus, just a bunch of different kinds of animals that are in there.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:15:04

Actually.

Duane Newton 1:15:06

And you alluded to that you're, you're no longer on the public health side, um, and so you've recently moved into industry. And, um, I'm interested to hear kind of how that process has been for you, and, um, you- it- has there- what- when you op- how have your eyes been opened i- in different ways, you know, being in that, in that role even though it's only been a, a little while so far, um-

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:15:41

Six weeks.

Duane Newton 1:15:42

Wow, yeah. Yeah. At the time of the recording it's six weeks, but, um, what's that experience been like for you and, and maybe, you know, what do you ha- or is there anything that you didn't expect or things that you're like, "Wow, that's kinda interesting." Uh, or, you know, what, what's new or unexpected?

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:16:03

It's, so first I'll say changing from being a public, a state public health lab director to going into industry was, um, a definite and decided pivot. I knew, I knew it would be a pivot. So, and I also knew I really... Like, I have collaborated with industry, like many, several times over the years. I have wonderful friends and colleagues that work in industry. And so I already, I, I, but I have no idea what it's actually like to be on the inside, right? And I will absolutely say I need to build my business acumen, because I don't really have a business head. I mean, to some extent, I'm used to managing huge budgets, but it's just not the same thing. Um, but, uh, one thing I will say is I truly believe that we're all on the same team, and ultimately we want the be- best care for patients. Whether you're in a clinical lab, public health lab, industry, research, we, we're on the same team. And everybody that I currently work with is just, they're all so, again, and i- in a way it's the same thing, but passionate about what they do. And so to be surrounded by that and I, you know, f- for the most pa- part was in public, public health lab as well, um, I just think it's exciting to, to be there and be with people that are excited about the work they're doing, that it's impactful. Um, I mean, what, what did you ask me? Like, what's new?

Duane Newton 1:18:04

Yeah. Or what, what was new to you, or what was unexpected or, you know, your eyes opened to something that you didn't, you didn't realize? I-

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:18:20

Nothing too drastic yet. It's j- it's sort of just learning a lot of new processes and ways of doing things. And- Did

Duane Newton 1:18:29

you have a, did you go to microbe?

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:18:32

Yeah, I was just about to say, and I go to microbe and I talk to people and they're like, "Well, when you get back you have to document that you had this interaction." And I was like, okay. So y- you're just, I'm learning those things and like, okay, how do I document it? What do I say? Like, what work did we talk about? Um, whereas I'm used to being on the other side.

Duane Newton 1:18:55

Mm-hmm.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:18:56

So there's this whole place that you can go to, to look, to look up interactions, so I actually got to go in and search myself. But, you know, it's very interesting to go from being a KOL to you're the one that wants to go talk to the KOL. Yeah. And, um, but, but also at the same time, there's so much collegiality in our field. It, it didn't feel, it didn't feel- Odd to be on the other, other side

Duane Newton 1:19:30

Hmm. That's good. I definitely, um... The first meeting that I went to, I felt odd. And I don't, um, I don't know that it was any It wasn't the fault of my employer. It was me internally trying to figure out how, how do I wear How do I wear the industry hat and the clinical microbiologist hat at the same time? And, um My, I, I was fortunate that my, my boss was at, I think it was a ADLM meeting, um, the, you know, six months after or eight, nine months after I had started, and my boss happened to be at the meeting as well. And we had lunch one day, and I, I told him, it was like, "I have... I'm having this weird struggle where I'm not sure, like-" Who am I supposed to be here? You know, like, am I, am I Bio-Rad? Am I Duane, the clinical microbiologist? You know, like... And b- because I, I was tr- I was trying to figure out how do I represent the company and not Um disconnect or, or dis- disavow my, you know, who I am as a, as a scientist and the relationship that I have with these people, with our community. And, you know, to his credit, he said, "Just be y- be who you are. You are who you are. And, yeah, we wanna know who you talk to, and we want, you know, to track those interactions and, you know, there's... We have to show that there's value in you being here. And, uh, and at the same time, you know, you're relationship building, and you're connecting, and you're engaging." And, um, so I just, I say it, I ask the question because of the experience that I had, and I was just curious as to, you know, did any of those thoughts come up. I, m- I'm not saying that en- everybody should feel that way. Uh, just, it's just the way that I... I- it was weird. I- it was totally unexpected. As I'm standing in the middle of the-

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:22:10

I, I was... Sorry, go ahead.

Duane Newton 1:22:11

I was just gonna say, as I'm standing in the middle of this exhibit hall and I'm like, th- this feeling come over me. I'm like, "Who the hell am I?" You know?

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:22:22

I, yeah, I, I was apprehensive, so I actually talked to a few people who've m- moved into different industry positions in the last year and said, "How, how did it make you feel? What do you think? Like, how do you and I interact? Like, what if we..." We have been friends working in clinical or public health labs, and now we're in, both in industry, but for different-

Duane Newton 1:22:50

For companies

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:22:52

companies. How do... Like, do we still get to sit together and talk to each other? And she was like, "Of course." And I, but I think you get that, you, you get that leeway with medical affairs, right? And for me, I was just worried, like, what is it c- that I should... W- like, what conversation should I not have? And then I think it's kind of obvious if there's anything confidential or in, you know.

Duane Newton 1:23:17

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:23:18

Um, so I think that was my apprehension, was more like what your boss said, "I'm gonna go there and be me, but what should I be mindful of not to do?"

Duane Newton 1:23:30

Mm-hmm.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:23:31

And really, other than what I said, like I think the obvious, you can j- you can just be yourself because you are- um, you know, a clinical microbiologist professional. And, um, and yeah. And so I, and, and I will also say that all of my colleagues and friends that are in the clinical and public health lab space, they're not in industry, have it- you know, all of those people in my network have just been so supportive of me, uh, moving into this role, and that just goes to tell you the importance of our community, the strength of our community

Duane Newton 1:24:24

Mm-hmm I think that's, um, those It's, it's wonderful that that's the direction that this has all taken. Like that, that not just for our profession and, you know, the opportunities that exist for us and the relationships that we can build and maintain, but I think, um, for you as a person that in- The the path that you've taken, the challenges that you've faced, um even the, the very difficult situations that come from, you know, these frankly, very political and not very, um, helpful perspectives that people take and the impact that it has, not just on, you know, programs, but on people. And, um, you know, how you've- you've stayed above that Um, I think, you know, your, your strength and your perseverance and, um You're, you may not have felt confident, but you were displaying confidence through it all, um, has been I mean, I hope I never have to go through that 'cause I don't know if I-- how I would hold up. Um, but it's inspiring and, um, I think, you know, you've come through You've come through it, a- and I really enjoy and appreciate the person that I see.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:26:55

Thank you. I'm, I'm sure I had a couple of wobbly moments on happy hour. But, um, but yeah, I mean, I- I, I do think it, it, you know, life can be challenging and changing careers can be challenging. And my kids are young. I was like, "I've gotta get through this." And, and I love what I do, and I want to continue to do what I love to do for as long as possible and feel like I'm making an impact, feel like, you know, that I, I, I have that tangible aspect of helping people, um, and that there's a patient at the end of the things that we do, and that, that's what keeps me going

Duane Newton 1:27:53

Uh, I'm super thrilled that you've landed in a space where you feel that energy and that spark and that alignment, and, you know, you're surrounded by people that share that vision and that enthusiasm because I think that's, um... I know you were living a life where that wasn't the case And, and you're still trying to be the person that you are and do the, the doing the right thing, and, um, that takes a toll. And I think, you know, I'm... You're brighter and you're, you know, the aura and the energy that you have is, um, is awesome, and I appreciate you sharing, um, sharing all that you've shared. I, I'm... I didn't get to ask you if you're, you know, if you have a football team in the London, in the London city area that you follow, or you got converted to Newcastle United, or like... Don't tell me you're like a Man U fan or something like that.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:29:12

No, no. But my mom is from Manchester, so most of my family are Man U fans. But I'm, I'm a Gunner.

Duane Newton 1:29:19

You're a Gunner. Ooh. Gunner. Got to raise the trophy. Excellent. Uh, I-

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:29:25

Um, yeah

Duane Newton 1:29:26

it's really funny 'cause I, I didn't s- I started watching, uh, you know, now it's Premier League. I, I don't remember what it was called back then, but, um, when I was a fellow 26 years ago, 27 years ago, they would play, replay, um, Premier League games of the week on the, on Fox Sports when I was in New York, and I started watching these games on the weekend, like one game a weekend, and I started really liking it. So I, uh, in those days, Michael Owen was on Liverpool, and h- I liked him and kind of followed them around. But, yeah.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:30:12

Well, it's all right. I like Arsenal because of Ian Wright, okay? Okay. Ian Wright is just the best. And also I'm from London, but, um, yeah. It's, uh, it's funny. My, my kids say they're Man U supporters We're a house divided.

Duane Newton 1:30:30

And I understand, I understand how that goes. You cannot, um, th- how kids choose their allegiances is kind of-

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:30:40

Right

Duane Newton 1:30:41

is unknown. Marie-Claire, thanks so much for, um, your willingness to be here today and for sharing your story. I think it's great. I think there's probably two more hours of conversation that we could have about a million different things, and, uh, so we'll schedule that for a future time.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:31:02

Thank you so much. And I just wanted to add that I... Public health is still in my heart, and I am doing lots. All the public health stuff I can do at bioMerieux I'm, I'm still working on, so I s- I still have my soapbox.

Duane Newton 1:31:22

Well, I, I think it's permanently affixed to your feet. Mm. Thanks for the conversation. Look forward to seeing you around.

Marie-Claire Rowlinson 1:31:36

Yes, me too. Thanks, Duane.

1:31:43

If you're enjoying Navigating Your Path, please be sure to like or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to directly connect with me, you can reach out via my podcast email, which is listed in the description of this episode. The description also contains the links to the podcast website and YouTube channel, where you can check out more of my content. Feel free to reach out if you'd like to share any comments or even make suggestions about future topics to discuss. I'd also love to hear from you if you have suggestions for people for me to interview, or even if you'd like to come on the podcast and be interviewed by me. You can also contact me if you'd like to learn more about what it is that I do as a professional development coach. I look forward to having you join me next time. Take good care