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Hi. Welcome to Navigating Your Path. I'm your host, Duane Newton. In this episode, I interviewed a longtime friend of mine, actually one of the longest friends I've had in my professional career, Dr. John Osiecki. John is the Vice President of Medical Affairs with BioMerieux. This episode really reinforced to me why I enjoy doing this podcast so much. I've known him for over 20 years, and I still learned new things about him. What wasn't new is that I continued to learn new things from him. He's just that kind of person. John shared stories of the people, experiences, and books that he's read that have shaped the approach that he takes to learning, to leadership, and to life. John is one of the most thoughtful, well-read, and inspiring people I know, and I'm certain that he will open your eyes to many things that will help you on your own journey. Please enjoy my conversation with Dr. John Osiecki

Duane Newton 1:12

What's the latest? What's new? What's happening?

John Osiecki 1:16

Yeah. Uh, always exciting stuff going, you know? Middle of the year, there's outbreaks of gastrointestinal disease all over the s- country and you know. I'm seeing- Breaking about, uh-

Duane Newton 1:29

Cyclos- um, Cyclospora- Yeah in Michigan.

John Osiecki 1:34

Yep, and then influenza in boot camp and military facilities, you know? It's just, uh, yeah, par for the course, I guess, in infectious disease. Always lots of interesting things going on. I guess that's the fascinating part of, uh, infectious disease, right?

Duane Newton 1:50

I saw, um, there's some marketing emails that were talking about, um, that came from BioMerieux on water testing, and it kind of made it sound like there was something going on in association with the World Cup as far as disease surveillance.

John Osiecki 2:08

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. There's a couple sites in the US that are doing that. They're looking basically at changes in, you know, organisms and signatures that are being detected in the presence and absence of World Cup activity attendance.

Duane Newton 2:22

I see.

John Osiecki 2:23

It's interesting.

Duane Newton 2:23

So monitoring when, you know, over time when games are there and not there and, you know... Okay.

John Osiecki 2:29

Yeah.

Duane Newton 2:30

Interesting.

John Osiecki 2:31

Yeah.

Duane Newton 2:31

That's pretty-

John Osiecki 2:32

That'll be a fascinating, uh, publication, I'm sure.

Duane Newton 2:36

Um, can you remind me the years that you were a fellow?

John Osiecki 2:44

Yeah, so I, uh, finished my PhD program back in 2003 and then attended the fellowship program at the University of Rochester from 2003 to 2005. So I wrapped up in 2005.

Duane Newton 3:00

So yeah, we were only a year off. Mm-hmm. Okay. So, um- So you, did you interview with Wendy and Hossein?

John Osiecki 3:13

I did. Yep. I met with both of them, and Wendy and I actually worked on a project together that we presented a poster. Uh, I think it was at the Clearwater Symposium my first year in my fellowship.

Duane Newton 3:26

Really? So she was still there at that time?

John Osiecki 3:29

No, she had moved on, but I inherited the project and-

Duane Newton 3:31

Oh, I see. Okay put the

John Osiecki 3:32

poster together and presented it. Yep.

Duane Newton 3:35

Okay. Yeah. Um, so, um, you know, you're in the top three or four people of people that I've known the longest in our profession, so that's pretty cool.

John Osiecki 3:49

Yeah.

Duane Newton 3:50

I always got a kick out of the fact that, um, it's kind of like what happens in families when, you know, there's so many kids and the mom and dad can't call your, you know, call you by your right name, that you and Mindy kept getting called Duane and Wendy. Yeah, that's right.

John Osiecki 4:10

Yep, we had a lot of that,

Duane Newton 4:13

which is kind of fun. Well, I appreciate Yeah, it is, uh, it is, it's funny. Um, but I appreciate your willingness to, to come on and, and- Sure talk and share some of the perspect- perspectives that you have. I think, you know, where I, I like to start is kind of going back to, um, you know, maybe origin story times and your family and where you grew up and- Sure uh, I think there's always some interesting little tidbits about family life and, and where people grew up and what they experience have kind of carried through with them. So remind me of where, where you're from- Yes and what your p- family did.

John Osiecki 4:57

Yeah, actually, I grew up in the Midwest, so in the St. Louis area, but outside of St. Louis, so in a really rural community. Uh, my parents were not a fan of living in suburban neighborhoods, you know, so early on in life, I think I was in fifth grade or so, we moved out to the country. They had 10 acres way out in the woods, and everything was far away. So I think by the time I got to be 18 and the idea of college, like going to a place where you could order a pizza, was just really exciting to me. That it could be delivered to my door, you know? Simple

Duane Newton 5:30

pleasures.

John Osiecki 5:31

Those, yeah, things that everybody else takes for granted for generations, uh, was not accessible to us, so. And I think that's interesting, as I've studied, like, leadership and you study people, like people who yearn for those things tend to be curious. They tend to wanna learn more, you know, and engage in some of those things, so maybe that's where it sort of came from. But, um- Is

Duane Newton 5:53

there a theme of kind of that early isolationism or iso- Yeah isolated experience that, you know, kind of, that you see pop up a little bit?

John Osiecki 6:04

For sure. Yeah, no, I think, I was thinking about this today, too, like, you know, just I was kind of a nerdy kid that liked to go to the library, which is weird now that I think about it. My kids kind of make fun of me. You know, so, like, "You're always reading books." And I think it's this idea of being curious and wanting to learn, and just even going back to... I mean, things are different now. Everything's digital, and you have tons of information at your fingertips. But that was always something that I really enjoyed, was learning, you know, independently of s- what's being taught in school and that sort of thing. Mm-hmm. So I think that's helped me a lot in my career and helped me to connect with people.

Duane Newton 6:37

How many siblings did you have?

John Osiecki 6:40

I had two sisters growing up

Duane Newton 6:42

Older, younger?

John Osiecki 6:43

They're both older, yeah. So they're, uh, still in the St. Louis area, but, uh, yeah, they're a couple years older. So we were pretty close in age. And, uh, you know, I went off to college to, uh, Northeast Missouri State, so Truman State is what it is now, and, uh, spent a few years up there, and got my undergraduate degree in biology and chemistry. And then, uh, s- I started attending a program at, uh, St. Louis University in, uh, St. Louis, so that's a private sort of Jesuit institution there in St. Louis. Got to work a lot with folks at WashU. I met, uh, some great, uh, graduate students while I was there that were working on PhD programs and master's programs, and learned a lot. And then-

Duane Newton 7:27

So what was that, what, what was the program at, at St. Louis that you-

John Osiecki 7:31

They actually had a, a, a master's program in pathology. So it was just about understanding disease processes and- Mm-hmm I was kinda interested in microscopy and learning more about using tools, you know, to visualize disease processes. Uh, had some great, um, instructors in my undergrad that kinda inspired me in that way. Uh, I took a pathogenic microbiology course that I thought was really fascinating- Mm-hmm so was wanting to learn more about that. So when I got to my master's program, the PhD program that I entered into, the professor that I was working with there, he, uh, was interested in, you know, disease progression from enteric pathogens. It's interesting we're talking about enteric pathogens again. Like, they don't go away, right? Mm-hmm. We haven't solved that problem yet. Uh, but molecular mechanisms of pathogenesis, which really fascinated me. So that's what I spent my time on, uh, in my PhD. He actually transferred to the University of Kansas while I was studying with him, so I, I went with him. Uh, and that's where I ultimately got my PhD, at the University of Kansas.

Duane Newton 8:34

Where, where did the, um- the interest in biology come from? Was there something in high school that started or, you know, did you get exposed to it through your family? Or where- Yeah what was the-

John Osiecki 8:46

It's interesting, you know, you talk about your what inspires you in life, and I talk to my kids all the time. Like, "How do you, what do you think of Spanish?" They're like, "Oh, my ter- my teacher's terrible. I hate Spanish." And it's like, well, is it Spanish that you hate, or is it your teacher that you hate? And I would say when I went to high school, I actually took a biology class like we all do, and the, the teacher for the course was, he was the head basketball coach for the high school. Okay? So every summer, he would plan a trip to the mountains out in Colorado, and, uh, he would invite anyone to come, and you could pay your, it was $400 for a week, you know? We got on a school bus, and we drove out to Wyoming and Colorado, and we actually took all of our gear and our food, and we unloaded the bus, and he had a ranger drive the bus away because the place we were going to get on the bus again was 41 miles through the mountains. Mm-hmm. So we had to hike, and we had to camp, and we had to catch our food. We did a lot of fishing and caught trout in the streams and cooked our food and hiked through the mountains, and it was an amazing experience. And he was just a really great leader, and he was someone that, he taught integrity, you know, he taught a lot of these core principles that make a team great. And I'll never forget that trip, 'cause there were so many problems and issues. It's a good illustration, I think, of life. When we went on this trip, one of the, uh, kids that participated was from Texas. He was really fair-skinned, had red hair, bigger kid on the football team. And, uh, we got up one morning, 'cause there was snow on the ground, and, uh, w- Coach told us, he's like, "Hey, we're gonna have to get up super early, like 4:00 in the morning. We're gonna break camp, we're gonna load up our gear, 'cause we have to hike on top of the snow." This is in June, right? We have to hike on top of the snow because as it warms up, your legs will, you know, crack through the top of the ice, and then we're gonna s- scratch our legs up, and people are gonna get, get infections. It's gonna be bad. So we had two chaperones that were, like, 22 years old. These were new, you know, teachers at the school, were supposed to go on the trip with us to chaperone. Well, they decided they weren't getting up at 4:00 in the morning, and they would just meet us at the next camping spot, that they would find us there. But they'd never been, and we are out back in the mountains, right, in Wyoming. So we got up, we did our hiking, we got to this place for midday. We waited and waited and waited. They never came, the other two chaperones. So he told us, he's like, "Hey, I'm gonna go find them. They're lost. I know they took a wrong turn, and I know exactly where they are. If I'm not back by tonight, I'll be back tomorrow. You guys just stay here, you know, you're gonna be fine." So our chaperones led away the leader of our group, and we were told just to stay where we were in the middle of the mountains, right? There's, you know, moose and bear and all kinds of wild animals. We have no idea where we are. None of us had been there before. And so it reminds me of The Lord of the Flies. What happens when you take a supervisor away, and you just have a bunch of teenage boys left to their wiles, you know, in the wilderness. So I would say within 30 minutes of him leaving, uh, a bunch of people thought it would be a great idea to get their ponchos out and sled down the mountain slopes with their ponchos in the snow. Now, thinking back on that, what if someone hit their head or had a concussion or there was an emergency? Like, we were done. But anyway, this, this, uh, uh, young man that went with us that was from Texas, that had really fair skin, he decided just to climb up on a rock and take a nap. So he took off his shoes, and he was there in his shorts. You know, he just laid back on a rock and fell asleep in the sun. What he didn't realize two hours later, that he had been baked by the sun, and he had the worst sunburn I've ever seen, and he had to put his boots on and walk. He had blisters on his feet, just covering his feet from the sunburn. And so, um, you know, the coach that was heading up the group, he went back, and sure enough, he was right. The chaperones went the wrong direction, exactly where he thought. He had to chase them down and then hike back. They made it back by nightfall, so we weren't alone through the night, but we were alone all day, for the most part, uh, in the woods. And it just reminds me, you know, I think some important lessons there, even at 16, like you're gonna make it, you know? It's not gonna be what you expected, and you just have to make the best of the situation, right? And turn tragic into magic, you know? Like, just make it a great thing, even though- You know, it feels like things are- Yeah stacked against

Duane Newton 13:32

you Yeah,

John Osiecki 13:33

in the

Duane Newton 13:33

moment of it, yeah, in the moment you're They have no clue, and it's really funny-

John Osiecki 13:39

Yeah

Duane Newton 13:39

ha- to listen to you telling that story and in the 20- five years or 20-something years that we've known each other, there are little sayings that you used that I've heard before.

John Osiecki 13:56

Yeah.

Duane Newton 13:56

And, um, you know, about leadership, about perseverance, um, you know, ability to overcome and see positive in a negative situation. And, and- Sure and so it's, I'm really glad we went, went there because, um, as soon as you started talking about that coach and teacher, I could see how much of an impact he's had on you, because I'm hearing that.

John Osiecki 14:29

Yeah.

Duane Newton 14:29

You know, I've heard that over the course of our relationship over the last couple of decades. That it's- Yeah uh, that's where it came from.

John Osiecki 14:38

Had he been a Spanish teacher, we could be having this conversation- in Spanish, you know? Like, I don't know. It's hard to say, but And I think about that oftentimes, the people in your life that influence you, right, they have a, a deeper influence, I think, and that's He did that for, not just for me, but generations of young men, right, that went on these trips and-

Duane Newton 14:56

Mm-hmm

John Osiecki 14:56

really for the first time were away from their parents. They realized they could catch their own food and cook their own meals and, you know, hike through the wilderness, and be alone if that was what was necessary- Yeah and survive, right? And it just provides you with confidence. So that's something I've always tried to do and share with people, you know, is like- Yeah "Hey, have confidence. Like, you're doing great stuff, you know. Like, this is hard, but you have an opportunity to make it amazing."

Duane Newton 15:21

As a, as a parent, how, how do you feel like your, that experience and your experience as a kid has shaped your parenting style in the, in the context of the world that we live in now? Because, you know- Yeah there's I don't, I can't imagine anyone letting their kids go do something like that or, you know, hearing the aftermath of, "Yeah, we were alone the whole day because he took off," you know. He would not survive in a school system- with, you know, doing- No that kind of thing. You know, so- Yeah it's, I, I feel like, you know, there are elements of that kind of style, leadership and parenting, that maybe might have incorporated itself into how you approach things with your kids.

John Osiecki 16:12

Yeah. I, I'm, uh, a big fan of, like, family history, and I've looked back over the years into family history and I notice on my grandfather's side we're related to Native Americans, so I've always been fascinated with kind of Native American history and, like, I've read quite a few books and, um, kind- Heard some really interesting stories, and certain tribes, you know, what they would do is they, they would actually take their young people, their young men, and they would expel them from the tribe for a period of time, right? And I think that's been captured in a couple different books, where they, you know, it's basically a coming of age. You will go out, and you will either gain the confidence to survive in the wild, or you won't. But now's the time, right? And so think about how difficult as a parent that must be for the mother and the father of that child. You want them to be successful. And I feel like the pendulum for us has swung the other direction. I, uh, I have so many of our kids' friends that don't drive, you know? They don't have confidence to do a lot of things, and I think it's because we've protected them too much, you know, from, um, potential pitfalls or challenges. And the reality is that's the... I, I feel like that's why we're here. We're here to learn and grow, and this existence is about learning from our failures and overcoming them. It's not about being perfect. None of us are perfect. We're never gonna be perfect, as much as we try, so let's not fear failure. Let's learn from it. Let's embrace it. Let's grow, you know, as we go through that experience. So that's what I've tried to impose on my, my kids, you know, as they grow up, is This is an opportunity for us, you know, to make the most of every day, and to fail and do that quickly and learn from it so that we can enjoy a measure of success. And, uh, just to keep at it, because, you know, at the end of the day, I think a, a lot of times, too, going back to that coach that kind of inspired me, he was really a lot about teamwork. He was really focused on improvement, you know, making things better. But at the end of the day, it was really about integrity, you know? So who are you? What's in you? What's most important to you? Is it money? Is that really what's most important? Or is it the relationships you have with people and how they feel when they're around you? You know, there's lots of people, and maybe sometimes culture creates an environment where we think it's all about money. Uh, but at the end of the day, at the end of your career, right, you're gonna sit down and reflect on the successes you've had. W- when was that golden time, you know-

Duane Newton 18:43

Mm-hmm

John Osiecki 18:43

when, uh, you felt most productive or felt like you made the biggest impact? And to me, it's not about money. It's not about material things. It's really about, you know, the relationships that you've built, the support and confidence you've given to other people, how you felt when people supported you, and then when you were able to do that for other people, right?

Duane Newton 19:08

I Those are all That all resonates, and I think that that, um, for me, is how I've tried to live my life, is by making, you know, having those kinds of connections. And I've gotten the most out of experiences and my time and whatever because of the quality of that. But on the flip side, the You Having that comfort level to- Um, try and fail and be imperfect and, um, learn from it requires an environment I f- I feel like, uh, uh, culturally and, and relation- relationally that's supportive and kind of has a safety net mentality to it. Um, and that wasn't something... It's taken a long time to get, for me to get to that point where I've, I've felt more comfortable doing that. Sure. And so it's, I feel like it's, I'm, uh, I don't know how, if it's unique or not. Yeah. But I'm always, I always recognize that when people have it. Yeah. And so it seems like you kind of came up in a lot of different environments where you had that, you had that safety net around you, or you had, you were encouraged to try and supported in, in the, you know, quote, unquote, "failures" or, you know, the learning opportunities. And, uh, can you talk about people- Yeah you know, in graduate school and, and beyond that, um, you know, or undergrad, graduate school and beyond, that created that kind of environment or supported you in, in that way?

John Osiecki 21:03

Yeah. I'm gonna, I'm gonna share y- with you a story that I've shared with several of my teams over the years that I thought was, kind of illustrates this point. It's about a musician, his name's Keith Jarrett. Have you heard of him before? Mm-hmm. He's a jazz pianist. Uh, he was super popular, like, in the late '70s and the early '80s. I can't remember how I stumbled upon this story, but he, he was a very eccentric individual. He was not social at all. He was very, um, introverted, but an amazing, uh, pianist that was capable of improvisation like no one else, right? And so he was a really gifted musician, and he planned a trip in Europe, and he was going to different cities in Europe to play. And this is at sort of the height of some popularity of jazz music and improvisation. And so he had a, um, a, a manager that would go ahead of him and organize different events. Well, he was performing at a university setting in Köln, K-O-L-N, in Germany, and the person who was helping to coordinate the event was a graduate student, okay? And so when they coordinated the event, the location that he was gonna play in was this hall and, you know, he played on a, played the piano, so he preferred to have a nicer piano available. They had a Steinway, apparently, uh, in this hall, and this student was responsible for coordinating the event. They had sold thousands of tickets, and all these people were coming. So the manager shows up, and they, uh, to inspect the facility and to check out the piano, and it turns out the piano that was available was broken. It was an old Steinway piano that was, had issues with the keys and the pedals, and there were just all kinds of challenges with this piano. And so, uh, he goes to this... He said, "Who's respon- who's in charge? Like, this, we can't do this, right? This is not great. Uh, this is a less than ideal situation. You know, you have a virtuoso here that's going to perform, and you give them a broken piano. Like, we can't do this, you know?" And so this graduate, she doesn't know, right? She's like, "I apologize. Like, what can we do?" And he said, "Tell you what. Here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna record this live performance. We're gonna record it, and then this is gonna be the example that I provide to everyone in the future of why. And in the future, we would cancel, right? We would just cancel the program and not play, because you didn't provide the appropriate equipment, right?" So Keith Jarrett comes out on stage knowing that this piano is not optimal, and he gives a live concert that is recorded, and the recording of that album was the highest selling jazz piano recital live recording of all time. Because what you can hear, and I encourage people, and I share this with my team, I actually gave them the details. Listen to it. You can hear him improvising around the broken keys. You can hear him grunting, you know, as he tries to work the pedals, and he creates a masterpiece with this broken piano. So they actually illustrated the opposite, right? He said even though he had this terrible piano, the idea that people could watch someone that's a master at their craft master a broken piano was just a whole nother level, right-

Duane Newton 24:26

Mm-hmm

John Osiecki 24:26

of amazing. And so it kind of illustrates this point to me that, uh, that's life, right? Life is about making the best music with a broken piano. And, um, and the other thing I think that it illustrates that I, we all struggle with is you have to be true to yourself. You know? Like, you have talents and abilities. You communicate and connect with people. Don't, uh, don't run away from that. You know? Be yourself. Be natural. Don't be Bob McGonigal or, you know what I mean? Other people that you see stand up and run- Mm-hmm panel discussions or whatever. Mm-hmm. You know, be yourself and stay true to who you are and, uh, you know, do amazing work. And so that, that was a great, uh, that was a great story.

Duane Newton 25:13

I, I love that. I, and I think the, um, there's so many- I don't know cliches or metaphors, you know, silver lining, lemons, lemonade out of lemons, that whole... But I, I like, you know, making music out of the broken piano better Mm-hmm. Because, you know, that, that... 'Cause music is something, it, it resonates literally with, with me, and it's always been an, an important part of my life too. And the, um... I feel like My brain wants to go in so many different directions right now. Um We need to take a, take a second On a personal level, I feel Look, I just wanna acknowledge that that's a huge challenge for me That, um, to live with, uh, with that imperfection

John Osiecki 26:45

Yeah

Duane Newton 26:46

And, you know, it's come up In specific ways o- s- several times over the last month or so. And, um, you know, I think we've talked about it I, I had the opportunity to talk about it with other people in, in the podcast and, and in different, um, presentation settings about, you know, this battle with perfectionism, um, the battle against making mistakes, the battle against, you know, not looking like you know what you're talking about. And I think not that it's not present in, in every industry, but I feel especially in healthcare and in science, you know, there's a bar that, uh, real or perceived that's set that we're trying in- to jump over, and not being able to, um Well, in patient care, making a mistake can have big impact.

John Osiecki 28:01

Sure.

Duane Newton 28:02

And so I'm just like this I just want to acknowledge that that struggle is there and that, that, you know, it's a, it's a hard thing to find the space for yourself to, um, to fully, fully live that and comfortably live that way. Yeah. Uh, and I just, I, I think that was the main, the main thing that was coming up in that it, it was kind of, yes, I believe you, and I it's inspiring, and at the same time, this, the other side of this is that it's, it's, um, it is sometimes aspirational.

John Osiecki 28:44

Yeah. Yeah. I, I heard a great analogy for this, kind of a sports analogy. We're encouraged, as I interact with global colleagues and folks outside the US, they don't like our sports analogies 'cause we live and die by them in the US. But, uh, I thought this was a great analogy. Uh, I'm a fan of American football. It's a complicated sport. It moves very quickly. How many officials do you allow on the field when you think about your life, your professional career, your personal life, the things that you do? If there were 1,000 f- officials on the field during a football game, the game would never finish. There would be a flag on every play, and there would be penalties constantly. Not only do you need to play the game, but you need to win the game. And so h- in your mind, how many officials are you gonna allow on the field? Is it 1,000? Is it two? You have to be comfortable, right, with some imperfection because perfection is not possible.

Duane Newton 29:45

Mm-hmm.

John Osiecki 29:45

And we know that there's risk and there are consequences, and I feel- Bad for our clinical colleagues that have to deal with these failures. I mean, we know this is an issue, but we know that tools and resources are becoming available that can improve every day, you know, and reduce the impact that, um, some of these decisions may have. But, um, we have to make sure that we're creating enough space that we can deal with the imperfection, right? And not overanalyze it, but go forward doing the best we can with the time we have, you know, to drive success.

Duane Newton 30:21

But Uh, tr- a, um, impactful and maybe transformative, uh, book for me was a Brené Brown book called The Gifts of Imperfection. And I c- I can remember reading it and, you know, where I was in my life, um- Newly single, trying to figure out my way. You know, I, I think I was-- I had already kind of started thinking about my transition out of, in a clinical lab, or at least out of, in University of Michigan where I was, and a lot of, lot of uncertainty. And I think that book helped Settle me into- Mm-hmm you know, into more of that space that you're talking about, that, yeah, you know, this, these things, giving yourself space and grace is really important. And the things that you see as imperfections with who, who you are or how you approach things are what makes you unique and what makes you special to the, those around you. They see that in you as a, as, uh, an attribute, not a deficiency. And so I, I think that that helped start me on that journey of, um- Mm-hmm n- not being so self-judgy.

John Osiecki 31:49

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and you hear about there's a lot of these coaches, you know, that are trying to direct elite athletes, and it's the pursuit of excellence, right, towards perfection, knowing that you'll never actually achieve perfection. It's really investing in the pursuit of excellence, which I think is That's the key. It's the curiosity. It's the engagement. Mm-hmm. It's the pursuit of excellence. It's being engaged in the a- activity that I think is the important part.

Duane Newton 32:19

So I, I wanna take that thread and kind of run with it because, um, I'm su- I'm sure it's woven through the- In the path that, that you've taken in post-fellowship, so that relatively unique, um, in that, you know, going directly into industry out of fellowship program and, and staying there and, and kind of growing and moving along there. Can you talk a little bit about that journey and what, what drew you Aside, you know, from the obvious of, you know, a- an attractive job coming out of fellowship, but then, you know, to the decision to kind of stay down that, stay on that path and what that experience has been like and, and, you know, what has drawn you, what was the draw for you emotionally?

John Osiecki 33:22

Yeah, I think initially the, the typical path, right? The typical path when you become an undergrad is to get your bachelor's degree and find a job, and then you could go to a master's or a PhD program, and then the typical path for someone in a PhD program is to go into research, right? That's what all of our profes- professors try to convince us to do. Uh, I didn't choose that. I went into clinical, right? And the typical path for someone in a clinical fellowship program is to go into the clinical lab, which I chose not to do. And it did surprise me a little bit. I think what happened initially, uh, when I was finishing my fellowship, I had several offers at the time. There were lots of opportunities, you know, uh, coming out of fellowship. I know it's a little bit more challenging these days, uh, with some of the folks that are finishing up programs. But had multiple opportunities in clinical settings, but, uh, had a couple of industry opportunities, and again, it kinda comes back to mentors. You know, I talked to people in my network, other fellows I spoke with. I talked to, uh, Marilyn Menegas, right, who was the, the, um, head of our, um, program there at the University of Rochester at the time. She gave some great advice as well. And, um, ultimately I think what it came down to was the experience I had interviewing. Uh, you know, when I interviewed in the clinical settings, I was very familiar and comfortable with the environment 'cause I'd just come from that for two years. But when I went to industry, what was very apparent to me was that there was a lack of awareness, you know, of kind of the tangible day-to-day challenges that f- we face in the clinical laboratory. And so the way I designed my... You know, they would ask me to give a presentation, so I would give a presentation that said, "Hey, your stuff's broken, and here's why. You need to fix it." Not really trying to get a job necessarily, but to share with them, "You're moving in the wrong direction here as a company." And so the feedback I got was great. They're like, "This is what we need. You know, our organizations are full of people that have never h- been accountable in a clinical lab setting." They just don't have the sense of urgency. They don't understand the complexity. They don't have the experience at all. And so to me, that became an opportunity to make an impact beyond the borders of a typical clinical laboratory in New Jersey or in Texas or in Chicago, right, uh, where I could have a greater impact, not only in a region of the United States, but across the United States and, frankly, across the globe. I've been able to work with the CDC in China. I've run studies in Singapore and in Bangkok and in Australia and New Zealand and all over the world, not to mention lots of connections across the US and Canada and Mexico and South America. And so it's, it's been a really great journey, and, uh, I feel like it was that initially that planting that seed of a broader impact beyond just, you know, the walls of a, a single institution was what drew me into it.

Duane Newton 36:16

Did you have, um- Or, uh, who were the people that were influential, who've been influential for you in that process? Because I think that, that, you know, people on the clinical side, they're... people will drop names, uh, about, you know, their mentors- Yeah and they're, they're recognizable. And these folks may not be recognizable, but, you know, who would, who would you shout out, um, along the way?

John Osiecki 36:46

Yeah. I would say, so again, I think Marilyn Menegas, uh, she was a huge influence for me. Uh, she's no longer with us obviously, so couldn't help others in their journey. But one thing that she really impressed upon me, I think, she would recite this poem that was her favorite. I'm not sure if she shared it with you, but, uh, this is Princes and Kings. "Isn't it strange how princes and kings and clowns that caper in sawdust rings, and common people like you and me, are builders for eternity? Each is given a list of rules, a shapeless mass, a bag of tools. And each must fashion ere life is flown a stumbling block or a stepping stone." And it was this idea, right? Like, hey, you have an opportunity to help the community. Are you gonna block people and take all the praise, or are you gonna build up other people and step aside, right? And help them in their career. And I, you know, the older I get, I just really see the wisdom in that, and it's something I've tried to do throughout my entire career, you know, is to, to really build people up and provide them with guidance and support so that they can do those things that are challenging and continue to progress and grow in their confidence and capabilities. So I'd say Marilyn, uh, was a big, uh, was a big, um, influence for me. And I'll tell you again, and we lean a lot on the Rochester family, you know, like all the fellows that went through. And I'll, I'll give just another great example, Mike Loeffelholz, who's now at Cepheid. Uh, Mike had an industry experience early on after his fellowship. I just called him up and said, "Mike, I'd love to talk about this." And he's like, "Great, let's talk about it." So we jumped on the phone, and we talked through it, and he was really, uh, a great sounding board for me just to talk through, you know, him having been through it and what he learned from it and the opportunities that lie to, lie ahead. And if you look back through his career, he's had an amazing career, you know, of, of different, uh, leadership roles and won numerous awards and have helped a lot of people. And so I think he's another great example of, you know, sort of a pillar in the community that was, um, a great resource at, in the moment.

Duane Newton 38:59

Mm-hmm.

John Osiecki 39:00

And that's something I think I would encourage other people to keep in mind, is that- You should make time for that, right? When people reach out to you for advice or for perspectives, it's important, I think, to give back to those folks 'cause, you know, someone did it for me clearly- Mm-hmm and that really helped me on my way. So are we stumbling blocks or stepping stones, right? I think there's... And there is no reward. I didn't pay Mike, you know, for his advice or didn't have, you know, any compensation or anything, you know, tangible other than goodwill, you know, and just support of the community so that I

Duane Newton 39:35

could progress. And it's, yeah, it's, it's like, you know, it's Marilyn's legacy and Mike's legacy and, you know, hopefully, you know, our legacy th- th- by taking that example and, and doing the same things. I, um, I've referred to it over the last couple of years as the Marilyn Menegus effect or the Marilyn Me- effect in- Mm-hmm in, um... That was a huge motivation, uh, for me in creating the space and, you know, doing the happy hours that I've been doing and f- for exactly the same reason. And, uh, I was talking, um, to someone else in, in another podcast episode about a similar thing and how, like, how many thousands of people did that coach, did your coach- connect, you know, touch in, in some way, shape, or form over the course of his career. And wouldn't it be amazing to see, you know, what that impact has been like? Yeah. And then, you know, not only in that first generation or first degree contact, but the second and third and fourth degree contacts-

John Osiecki 40:59

For sure

Duane Newton 40:59

for those people. And, um, and I think the other thing that's part of it, it, it's not just making the effort, it's you have no idea when that- How that situation arises or when you're doing something that y- you may not have any idea of the kind of effect you're having on people by, by that. I had a conversation with a former employee of mine who came up to me at a meeting and s- and said, "You know, I remember when you told me about X, Y, or Z, and that was really important, and I've always remembered that." And I was like, "You're welcome." Right. Um, so I th- I think just kind of like having that be, having that kind of mindset of, uh, I guess it's, um, servant leadership- Yeah in, in a lot of ways. You know, do you, do you feel like that, that term resonates with how you've tried to approach it?

John Osiecki 42:10

Yeah, for sure. I think that's a great, uh, way to characterize it. It reminds me, one of the books I read that really left an impact on me was this book, um, it's called The Question Behind the Question. Have you heard of this book before?

Duane Newton 42:24

Mm-mm.

John Osiecki 42:26

So this book is about accountability, right? It's about being responsible. And, um, the book was written by- Uh, it was written by John G. Miller. It's a really short read. It's, it's about 20 years old now. But it just, it talks, it, it really explores this idea of personal accountability at work and in life. And it's, it's kind of a sales perspective, but he just illustrates some great points about people and relationships and building, you know, partnerships, and he tells this really great story in the opening. And if you humor me, I'll, I'll tell you the story. It's two minutes long. He basically says, "You know, I'm writing this book, and I'm working on different things, and I'm kind of busy. I had a busy day, and I was... There's a restaurant in my area that I thought I would just stop in and grab some lunch, but I didn't have a lot of time. So I just ran in, and the place..." This is a great restaurant, right? And they're super busy. So I went in, and I noticed that there was a place at the bar, and I said, "Hey, can I just jump up there at the bar and grab something real quick?" And they're like, "Uh, yeah, we're super busy, but yeah, you can squeeze in. Somebody just left." So he goes up to the bar and, uh, he sits down, and there's somebody, uh, working, like has dishes, like arm loads of dishes walking by, maybe a busser or something, like a young man, right? And the guy says, "Sir, you know, are you, are you joining us for lunch?" He's like, "Yeah." He goes, "I just want a salad and a Diet Coke. That's all. I just wanted to get a salad and a Diet Coke." And, and he's like, "Well, you know, we're super busy right now," but he's like, "I can get your order and put that in, but we don't have Diet Coke. We serve Pepsi. Would you like a Diet Pepsi?" And he's like, "No, I don't like Diet Pepsi. I'm not... Don't, I don't want that." And he's like, "I'll just have water." He's like, "Okay. Well, you know, it's a little bit busy right now. I'm gonna get to it as fast as I can." So this guy disappears and, uh, you know, he's thinking about his work stuff and just kind of focused there. And two minutes later, he comes back, uh, the waiter comes back with a salad and a soda that he sets down in front of him. And he's like, "Oh, thanks so much. I really appreciate you getting that out so quickly. I am in a hurry, and I really appreciate that." He said, "But I, I don't like Diet Pepsi." He's like, "I, I'll just have water." And he's like, "No, that's, that's a Diet Coke." And so he said, "Well, I don't understand. You told me that you don't have Diet Coke here." And he said, "Well, we don't." He's like, "Well, if you don't have Diet Coke, then where did that come from?" He's like, "Well, there's a grocery store right across the parking lot." He's like, "Wait a second. Like, this place is slammed. You're super busy. How is it that you had the time to go across the street and get me a Diet Coke for my lunch? That's, that, that's not even possible." He said, "I didn't. My manager did." So think about that. There's a lot of layers to that from an accountability perspective Right? To walk across the parking lot and spend a buck on a soda to please a customer who's just having a salad for lunch, that is way over and above, right, that you would ever expect. And so the author goes And so he built this book around this idea of personal accountability. You are the customer. You're coming into the restaurant. You want something that they don't have. You may not come back in the future if they don't have what you want. And so this guy is going over and above, and he didn't just do it himself. He relied on other people, like his manager, and his manager was willing to walk across the parking lot and spend a buck because it mattered to his employee that this person have a positive experience. Does that happen today? How many times have you been into, you know, a s- um, home improvement store and people just run the other way, right? What is more important that those people could be doing than helping you find the item you want to buy?

Duane Newton 46:21

Mm-hmm.

John Osiecki 46:21

We have the complete opposite approach when it comes to accountability in our society today, and I think that story illustrates it really well. You could be successful at anything if you just listen to your customers and you attend to their needs, and so much of what we do is the opposite of that. In food service, in commercial everything, it is the opposite. And so I hope with the young people, I think this is gonna change, right? People are gonna get fed up. They're just tired of mediocrity everywhere, and when people start to figure this out, they're gonna see that it's important to make those connections, right? Mm-hmm. And so personal accountability, I think, goes a long way. So anyway, the author says, "I went back to that restaurant," right, "hoping to see that guy again," and guess what? He wasn't there. Do you know why? He got promoted.

Duane Newton 47:13

Mm-hmm.

John Osiecki 47:13

And he wasn't at that restaurant anymore. He was a manager at another branch- Yeah or something

Duane Newton 47:18

like that. So- I, I think that that, that Oh, you can go. Finish.

John Osiecki 47:21

Yeah. That's So that's kind of the story, and that leads into a bunch of other examples that he shares about personal accountability, things that we can do, some tips and tricks. And so again, it's two hours. I read it on a flight, you know, going across- Mm-hmm the country. It's a really great book that gives some really keen insights on what he's learned, and I think it applies universally to personal life- Mm-hmm as well as kind of what we do in our work.

Duane Newton 47:43

Well, the In the, the leadership example from the manager, like he, he, um, exhibited the behaviors that he's trying- That's right to get out. You know, that he wants his staff to have, you know? And so there- Yeah that was the culture of the restaurant, is the I'm super busy, I still notice that this is something that we could do. How can I do that? Let me talk to my boss. My boss figures it out, he's, he's going above and beyond and it creates that culture of that willingness to go above and beyond because you're trying to help, you're trying to serve your customers. And- Yeah I, you know, I think that I'd like to hear from you h- the kinds of things that you think are important as a leader of big teams, complex teams, cross-functional teams, um, maybe t- teams that have different agendas or, um, are trying to accomplish different things that might be competing, um You know, that-that's not a, it's not an unusual scenario in a clinical lab either, you know, where you've- Yeah got different groups that have priorities and trying to get them all to work together and to be successful. And how, how have you incorporated your, some of these things into the approaches that you take with, with your teams?

John Osiecki 49:30

Yeah. It's, it's a good question. You know, I, I focus a lot on integrity and outcomes-based planning, you know, with my teams. I, I think that's, um, area of focus that we struggle with, just thinking about long-term strategic plans. You know, oftentimes we scramble around putting out fires and fixing problems, and the reality is 90% of those problems will go away if we just catch our breath and actually plan and execute, you know? Um, so I spend a lot of time with my teams talking through that. But this leads me to another really great book that I read a few years ago, it's probably been six years or so. There's a gentleman out of France that's, uh, he looks... done a bunch of research and studies, organizations, and he wrote this book called Reinventing Organizations, and this is like, uh, it's, it's quite complicated, uh, but he has a nice summary, like a cartoon guide, you know, to this really in-depth a- assessment of organizations. And basically what he does is he goes through history and he talks about where we are today and sort of the evolution of the human spirit, so to speak. And he says, "Think about it. What are some of the things that we talk about all the time? We talk about net promoter score and engagement and all these things. How do you get people engaged? Is it by, you know, uh, walking behind them with a big stick? You know, is that how you motivate people to do their best work?" It's not. It's really, it's connecting with the things that are most important to them and connecting with their talents and abilities, the things that are, uh, most, um, where they can make the greatest contributions. And so that's one of the things I focus on. We talked about servant leadership. That's super important, but the most important principle I think that I spend time on with my teams is empowering teams to make decisions and to guide the activities of the organization. So, for example, if I sit as the president of an organization, I'm not actually talking and in the weeds on the problems, the challenges, the issues like people are that are boots on the ground and out there really solving the problems. And so from my perspective, those decisions should be made at that level and in- involve those folks. And so we've created integrated teams where we collaborate. Um, I, I shared a, an exercise with my team, uh, when we first kicked this off. I brought a bunch of puzzles to our meeting. So there's- You know, a, uh, some of these, like, Japanese puzzles, you know, that are metal that you have to, like, unhook, and then, like, a crossword puzzle and a word find. And then there was, um, uh, just a regular, you know, cardboard puzzle where you put the pieces together. Then I have a 3D puzzle that actually sits here, uh, as a memorial to that meeting. Uh, it's a squirrel that are... Have you ever done a 3D puzzle before?

Duane Newton 52:25

Mm-mm.

John Osiecki 52:26

So these are puzzles where you have to stack the pieces in three dimensions, so it's not just a flat two dimension- Mm-hmm but three-dimensional. And so what I did is I put a puzzle on each table, and then I asked the teams, I said, "Okay, go. You're gonna solve the puzzle." And so what we found was that some people love it, right? They're like, "Oh, I love the 3D squirrel puzzle. Let me jump in." And they get right in there, and they do it. That's a strength, right? That person is comfortable, excited, not worried about failure, right, on the 3D squirrel puzzle. Other people, that's not for them, so let's not put them in the group that's focusing on the 3D squirrel puzzle. Don't do it. Put them somewhere else, right? So this is another super important principle of leadership. You don't wanna put your catcher in right field. You're gonna lose the game every time. Mm. If the person who's best at catching is in right field, you will lose. And so for whatever reason, uh, you know, I think we struggle with that principle as, as managers. Mm-hmm. So we need to understand and assess where are people's strengths and where are their weaknesses, and we all have them, and it's okay to have weaknesses. And then let's get these people in the right positions so that we can collectively win.

Duane Newton 53:41

Well, and you've shared, uh, a story with me recently about a situation where a manager had their catcher in right field, and-

John Osiecki 53:52

Mm-hmm

Duane Newton 53:53

you know, like, so how, how do you have... You know, what's that conversation like with the manager, and how do you- It, it's just, it's, it's challenging. Um, m- m- maybe you could talk about what you perceive- Yeah as the challenges are, you know, what the manager perceived as a challenge, what-

John Osiecki 54:15

Sure,

Duane Newton 54:15

yeah what the, the player felt like they were trying to accomplish and maybe weren't fitting. You know, like what- Sure what were you seeing at, from your level in that scenario?

John Osiecki 54:24

Yeah, no, and I, I think it's a delicate balance, right? And it's something that we all struggle with, and it's never perfect. But, uh, you know, we put people out there, we try to build them up and give them confidence, and let's just say they're on the pitching mound, right? And they're out there pitching. We just went to, uh, an Indians game last week, so this is a fresh analogy for me. There's a pitcher out there throwing, you know, throwing pitches, but the other team's hitting home runs, you know? How long are you gonna leave that person in? You can lose the inning, and you can lose the game, and it's up to the manager to decide when enough is enough. And so I have to step back and let the manager have that experience, but I'm here to be supportive and say, "Hmm, did you notice what happens, you know, in this situation? Was that person performing to your expectations? Were you clear with them about how they weren't meeting your expectations? Is it time to hand over the ball, or do you believe that they can continue going forward and resolve, you know, and- Mm-hmm and steer the ship back in the right direction?" And again, that's I don't want to take that away from someone to go through that experience. We talk a lot about, uh, failures, right? And I share this with my leadership team as well. You know, we as an organization, imagine we're a big ship sailing through the ocean. We can make mistakes, and we can take shots on the hull of the ship as long as those shots are above the waterline, right? Because we can repair that. So if this person is failing and you see it, but you believe in them and think they can do it, and they fail horribly, as long as that's above the waterline, we're okay. But when it's below the waterline, that's my accountability as a manager, and I take it away from you. So I make it really clear to my managers, "Hey, this is above the waterline. Your call what you want to do with this, but be aware there's consequences." And ultimately, they have to step in, you know, and resolve, uh, when things go south. But, but it's my job to make sure that we're not sinking the ship. I don't know, does that make sense?

Duane Newton 56:29

It does. Yeah. It, it actually reminded me, it, it kind of hearkens back to, um, a question that I asked you before or, or something that I recognized about what you're talking about, which was having, um- Creating an environment where people feel safe to try and fail. Mm-hmm. You know, have the, have the leeway to make decisions and see what happens. And, um, in the f- the f- um, I told a story in an, in an earlier episode about, um, standing up in f- in a lab meeting as a postdoc and telling how I screwed something up and how And I shared it because I didn't want anyone else to make the same mistake. And-

John Osiecki 57:20

Sure

Duane Newton 57:21

um, one of my fellow postdocs came up to me after the lab meeting and was like, "I can't believe you did that." I was like, "Yeah, it was pretty stupid." "No, I can't believe you got up in front of the whole group and told everybody." I'm like, "Y- yeah." I mean, what do I d- I This was I made a, uh, I made an assumption about a process, and I was struggling for two months on this project because I made that assumption. I don't want anyone else to have to go through that again, you know? And so it was, that was a weird thing to go through. But then as a, um, in Rochester, i- in the fellowship program, we started getting invited to, um, clinical pathology case conference where, um, it was typically the pathologists and the residents and fellows would present cases. And, uh, during my time at Rochester, Marilyn encouraged the, the new chair to include the microfellows in that conversation. And the chair at the time was Steve Spitalnick, who is a, um, blood banker, so really familiar with lab medicine and very engaged. But he create In, in this conference, his whole point was to bring up challenging cases and- Yeah what did you learn from it? And he created this place where it was I mean, and he talked about it and, and said, "This is a safe environment. If you can't stand up here and, and show and talk about mistakes and learn from them, there's no, there's no place to do that 'cause we wanna learn f- from that. We wanna, we want people to see." And it wasn't just the trainees. He would call on faculty and ask them questions or, "Why weren't you there when th- whatever happened?" Or, you know, whatever it was, it was everyone had an opportunity to share and to have, um- Have feedback given to them about performance regardless of what their, what their level was. But it was done in a learning, um, stepping stone type of a way, not in a, in an obstacle or a punitive, uh, really f- in a punitive way. And I think that that's, that has always stuck with me. And as It was, I would say, virtually impossible in the clinical setting to recreate that type of an environment. As much as I tried with our trainees, they were not willing to do that because there wasn't a community of faculty and leaders that were exemplifying that behavior.

John Osiecki 1:00:21

Yeah.

Duane Newton 1:00:23

So I, I think it's really important, and I want to acknowledge that, you know, the impact that you have in creating teams and, and being at a level Where you have a variety of, uh, different folks in leadership positions under you, that, that, that has a huge impact in, on so many people and the effectiveness of the organization. Yeah, for sure. I've seen it, I've seen it not... be the, the opposite.

John Osiecki 1:00:55

Yeah. Yeah, and it's a delicate balance, right? And I think it's difficult, uh, in the current environment as well. Um, you know, again, the, the overall goal for us is to create an environment where people can be heard, and that's really the goal of this book, you know, Reinventing Organizations. It's about the fact... I talked about puzzles, right? Each of us has talents and abilities. We have a lot to contribute. Mm-hmm. We don't wanna shut that down, right? We don't wanna create an environment where people can't express themselves, they can't bring ideas to the table. We don't wanna stifle innovation and problem-solving and improvement b- because we're so merit-focused, right, on only the wins and not learning from the setbacks. It becomes a real challenge, right? And so there's a delicate balance there. And so we do, we spend a lot of time on that, talking about... Another thing, too, I think we fail to do, and it, I think this touches on what you were, uh, um, illustrating earlier, we don't spend enough time. This is a military thing, if you think about it. When the military goes and they have a mission, they debrief. They go through the exercise and they say, "Okay, what worked? What didn't work? What surprised us?" We don't do that in the world, you know, a- as much as we should. Um, we go through lots of things, but we tend not, we just brush those things aside and maybe don't spend the time we need. And your, your story kind of illustrates that. Like, we need to pause and say, "Hey, how can we do this better in the future? How can we improve the process? What were some of the challenges that we didn't anticipate?" So that it's easier for people in the future to go through something similar and not to experience the same challenges, right?

Duane Newton 1:02:31

How, how have you incorporate that, incorporated that operationally into your, um, environment?

John Osiecki 1:02:38

Yeah, we do, we do exactly that, is we have debriefs. We sit and talk specifically about an activity, an event, what worked, what didn't work, what surprised you, how can we do this better in the future, what were the communication gaps? I think that's always... It seems like everything comes back to communication. A lack of communication, poor communication, incomplete communication, and so we spend a lot of time just going through. And I think it drives the team a little crazy sometimes, uh, to have to go through those exercises, but- It does bring a lot of value, and it, it really elevates, you know, your capabilities and your success when you have those conversations. I also think it creates that, that environment where people feel humility, right? And they can say, "Yeah, I could've done that better," or, "Oh, we should've done that differently." You know, and that's the other thing too is we go forward and we do stuff and we're like, "Wow, look at us. We did a great job. That was really good." Mm-hmm. And then the next time we do it, it's not so good because we forgot about all the things we learned last time. Mm-hmm. And we're, you know, we're moving down a little bit, uh, because we hadn't really, uh, revisited the feedback and the challenges. So, uh, yeah, so we do spend a lot of time debriefing on things.

Duane Newton 1:03:51

Do you feel like you Have the time and space to t- to do those debriefs without pressure from other parts of the organization, particularly, uh, the business side. So, you know, I think I, I could anticipate that, you know, on the sales and marketing side, the non-scientific sides of the organization, that Not that there isn't on the scientific side, but it's like, okay, what's the next, the next milestone to get to, the next thing to achieve? You know, got to We got to launch, we got to roll out, we got to change. Whatever it is, there's the next, the next big thing that we have to, um, we have to accomplish, and now we have this group of scientists over here that just wanna sit back and think about stuff, you know?

John Osiecki 1:04:47

Mm-hmm.

Duane Newton 1:04:48

Like, d- is there this Do you feel competing pressure or, um, a, a pressure to, to within organizations to, to not take that time?

John Osiecki 1:05:05

Yeah. The way I always position this, I kind of anchor it in organizational maturity. How mature are we as an organization? Maybe we're just putting out fires, and that's where we're at. That's just how, that's how we function, you know? Something explodes, and we go in and put out the fire. And we can do that, but that's not a happy place. Our customers aren't happy. We're not happy. No one's happy. Or we can invest in our people, we can invest in our relationships, right, through insights gathering and through engagement, and we can plan. And again, I My team hates hearing this over and over and over again, but to me it's all about strategic planning. What is the most important thing for us to do today that's gonna influence a positive outcome tomorrow, and how do we structure our day and our week and our month and our year and the next three years to be able to address the greatest needs that our customers have? It goes back to the Diet Coke, you know? You can either ignore that and put a Diet Pepsi on the table, which means you're not listening. How often does that happen? You can put a water on the table and say, "What you want, I can't provide 'cause I'm not willing to." Or you can go the extra mile and put the time and effort and energy into walking across the parking lot and getting a Diet Coke, right? So it's all about organizational maturity. It's about support. And fortunately for me, I, I've had great support, so when I go back to the organization, say, "We need to pause. Let's catch our breath. Let's take some time to think strategically. Let's put some plans in place," uh, those are I've had the ability to do that. And so I think part of it too is a- also laying out the plan, the vision, this is what it looks like, here's how it has an impact or benefit, and, uh, to be able to implement that. It takes energy and effort, right? And support across different teams. But we have good alignment, uh, where I'm at currently, and we have great, uh, uh, feedback and, you know, there's good humility across the teams to share perspectives and learn from failures and, you know, uh, keep moving forward.

Duane Newton 1:07:19

Uh, you said something a- at the very end that I, um, I recognize and, and maybe some people see it as a little bit of a barrier, but it does take a lot of time and energy not only to do that, but, you know, to go back to your baseball analogy, learn who your best catcher is, learn who your best right fielder is, learn who your best pitchers are, you know, to understand what the strengths and, um, you know, er- growth opportunities for your team, your individual- Yeah members of your, your team are. Um, that's-- I mean, I just-- I don't think there's anything It's clear that you've invested that time and energy be- uh, because it's something important to you. And, um, but I also Maybe you can just make a comment on that perspective or that approach and why- why you think it's important. Um, I mean, we've talked about why it's important, but I think, you know, there are Are there some tangible things that you can identify- Yeah that because you've taken that time, you know, this, this is the impact that that has had on- Sure on your team or your organization, your product development, the bottom line, whatever it is.

John Osiecki 1:08:54

Yeah. Yeah, it reminds me again of another book that I'll, uh, refer you to.

Duane Newton 1:08:59

I was- A- and I'm gonna, I'm gonna write down, uh, and provide links to all these books- Yeah, yeah because I'm sure there are people out there that are gonna like, "What was that again?"

John Osiecki 1:09:07

Yeah. Well, it's interesting. I So I was at church talking to a colleague, and I didn't realize kind of what his background was, but he's an executive for Pepsi, okay? And, uh, I asked him, I said, "Hey, you know, I'm talking to my team about some stuff," and I was looking for a good book, like a motivational book, something that they could read. And he's like, "Oh, I've got the best book for you. I, this is my favorite book. I use this all the time. It's a really great book." And so it's by Mike Michalowicz, Michalowicz. I'm not sure how you pronounce his last name, but it's called All In, is the name of the book. And he tells this really great story in there about onboarding. He's like, okay, you bring in the new employee and they're doing their job. Let's think about this. How important is that first impression, the first two weeks, the first two months? And he goes through this exper- He, he tells this, this story about, um, this is an IT company that has this... Or, I'm sorry, maybe it was a healthcare company. I don't remember the details. But it was basically a company that needed software, right, to manage whatever their tool was. And so they went through and they interviewed a bunch of people, and they found this guy who was really great. And so they're like, "You're amazing. You're a great fit for the company. We're gonna hire you. Go do your thing." So they didn't really give him direction. There was no babysitting. There was no hand-holding. There was no... They just said, "You have to implement this, you know, software with our customers so that they can get their stuff done, and you need to do that." So this person, uh, came in and did a great job, right? Interacting with the customers, understanding what they needed, but built something that management wasn't aware of, didn't have the details, was kind of just doing his own thing, and apparently built a structure into the company that depended on his interaction with the system. And so then he goes back to the management and says, "Hey, um, I think I'm overworked and I'm not paid enough, and you're gonna compensate me with X, Y, and Z so that we can go forward." And he said, so basically this person came in and was- holding them hostage, right? Because he had built out this whole thing. He's like, "What, what do you do?" You know, as a leader in a company, y- that's basically blackmail is what was happening. But it was their own fault because they weren't engaged. They didn't give clear direction. They weren't aware of what was going on. And so, that was a really good illustration of, hey, if you're not aligned with your people, if you're not spending time showing them the vision of what we're doing here, and then deliberately h- connecting the dots on how we wanna be successful, and whether that's in the clinical space or in industry or what- wherever, it's critical to make those connections. And how to get these individuals to be all in, you know, the, the book talks about how every employee can be all in.

Duane Newton 1:11:52

Mm-hmm.

John Osiecki 1:11:53

It's dependent on us as managers to create that environment where we're connecting to people's core beliefs, their core values, their Motivation, right? To get out of bed in the morning and go to work, the impact, uh, that they can drive. And so that's a big part of this, I think, is just driving those understandings, I think, within the team members, and then helping them to see, uh, that there's an opportunity here. There's runway, there's growth, there's recognition for the work that they're doing, and that they have a voice. And, uh, you know, if you think, th- that other book about reinventing organizations talks about this. 500 years ago, people were lost in these huge organizations that were just y- you went to work and did your thing and punched your timecard, and you got your, your money. People don't want that. They wanna be creative. They wanna make contributions in meaningful ways. They wanna evolve, and, um, that, that's what we're, we're seeing today, and that's what the future is gonna hold, is really tapping into people's core belief system and tapping into our desires to improve healthcare, right? And to improve patient care. We all know people that have had negative experiences with healthcare, and that's what drives a lot of us, I think, to continue going forward, uh, to introduce innovation. And we're on the precipice, right, of this huge change in healthcare and society with all the artificial intelligence and the automation and all the new technology that's coming. Huge changes are coming, and we need that mindset, that growth mindset, rather than a fixed mindset going forward.

Duane Newton 1:13:32

Oh, that may lead directly into my kinda wrap-up question for you, but it's, like, what's, what's moti- what's motivating you for, you know, your future, you know, the future part of your career? What are the things that- Yes are keeping you excited, keeping you engaged- Yeah that you, that you want to try to accomplish, you know, uh, and that as you're, you know, we're kind of at similar points in our lives. You're younger than me, though. Sure. I think you have a lot more time in service than I have left. But maybe you don't want to. I know what's, what's the, what are the directions that you wanna go, or what are the things that keep you excited about staying in the workforce?

John Osiecki 1:14:21

Yeah, I think, I think right now it's super exciting, just this confluence of all these things coming together. It's great to hear about the advances that are being made, you know, outside of the US as well as inside the US when it comes to healthcare. Had some great interactions with some of the clinical settings, the more innovative ones that are adopting robotics or, you know, drones flying equipment around the medical campus, and just some really great stuff that's, that's being implemented. All the AI tools that are, you know, being discussed, not yet implemented, and then how far we've come with machine learning. Every time you go to a conference, right, there's new insights on that, and I hear more and more about that every day. Um, I would say when this first started, you know, the whole AI thing, and I would have to say I was sort of a naysayer initially. You know, it's like, "Oh, this is gonna be a problem. It's... Is it really gonna help?" You know, are there certain situations where we can, um- You know, making an im-im-impact here and, uh, really drive success for patients that we don't have to babysit or that doesn't have, you know, negative consequences that we're-- we can't see. And I don't know if I shared this with you before, but we, we were at a conference in Europe. Did I share this? No. I'll tell the story again. We were at a conference in Europe, and we were hosting, you know, clinical laboratory leaders. And so these were, like, predominant kind of, uh, laboratory leaders from Europe. And, uh, we invited someone that was an AI expert, and he was young, you know, very knowledgeable in artificial intelligence. And he came and he talked about the future, and he just said, you know, "In the future, artificial intelligence is gonna use all this data, and we have opportunities to really improve the way we deliver care. And you, you haven't really-- you don't understand because you don't see it yet. But when it comes, and this is happening behind the scenes today, but will be, you know, in the forefront here soon, is that some of the things we're doing today, we won't need to do because we have these tools." And so, um, I reflected on that a bit, and it, it was interesting to see the panel. Most of them were kinda our age and older and, uh, they were set in their ways, and they had honed their skills. They were amazing at the things that they did in the clinical lab, and they were very aware of the stumbling blocks and the limitations and the challenges, right, in the clinical setting. And they said, "You know what? We've done everything for years and years. We've dedicated our lives, you know, to solving some of these problems, and you're, you're telling me software's gonna fix this? Like, no. It's just not gonna happen." And so the conclusion from this young, you know, AI expert was that we're gonna get lapped. Basically, what's gonna happen is we're so fixed on interpretation of our Gram stain and trying to figure out a solution that does that accurately, and again, this is m-me paraphrasing, that that will be irrelevant in the future because the data that will be collected on each patient and a digital twin that can project disease and disease progression is going to tell you what that Gram stain would be, and you never have to touch a slide. Right? It's gonna identify what the organism is, and what the gram stain would be, and what the resistance patterns would be, because with a high level of confidence, we've mapped this in a digital setting with billions of data points. Mm-hmm. And so stop focusing on the gram stain and think broader about implementing these. And so I've read a couple other articles and some papers and stuff, and a couple other points that have come out to me were, you know, if you think about the automobile when it was introduced, it took about 10 years. For, for thousands of years, people rode horses everywhere, right?

Duane Newton 1:17:59

Mm-hmm.

John Osiecki 1:17:59

In 10 years, transportation completely changed, right? And now everyone drives automobiles. No one rides a horse to work anymore. It just doesn't happen, and that's what's gonna happen here. Do people die in automobile accidents? Every day someone dies, but that doesn't prevent us from using cars as transportation. And so if you apply that to AI, that is the There are gonna be issues. There are gonna be problems. There could be big problems. We don't know. Mm-hmm. But AI is here. It's going to be here, and there's gonna be casualties, but we believe that the overall benefit to society is greater than the risk for the damage that it could, it could incur. So, so that's another thing I think is fascinating, a little scary, is some of the books that I've read on AI. And there's, uh, one in particular that I really enjoyed, 'cause it talks not just about medicine, it talks about, you know, banking and all these other industries, and talks about, you know, a lot of the different challenges and stuff that we're gonna see in the future, and how those will be overcome, and a lot of different theories. And, uh, so this one is called The Coming Wave by Mustafa Suleyman, and he was one of these preeminent leaders in like 2010 that was very focused on developing AI tools, and quite accomplished. And it was a New York Times bestseller. Uh, a really great book that's, uh, quite exciting and a little scary. You know, just to think about the ways in which some people- Mm-hmm can use AI for bad. He goes through that, you know? And then also goes through the good.

Duane Newton 1:19:32

Yeah.

John Osiecki 1:19:32

And, uh, it's disproportionate, you know, the way it could be used and why we need regulation. But he talks very specifically about applications and sequencing, and talks about medical treatments, and about developing antibiotics using artificial intelligence, and developing toxic poisons, you know, and how that could be used maliciously. So that, well, I think we need to study and learn and grow and understand this and, and make sure we're focused on it, but I think we're gonna see tremendous increases and benefits. And so you asked about the future and why I'm excited about the future. The, the gentleman that was with us, uh, in Europe at that symposium, he talked about the time when, uh, the microscope and the telescope- Were invented about the same period of time. So think about that. We could see smaller things than we'd ever seen before, and further away than we'd ever seen before. That expanded our knowledge tremendously, right, in that small period of time. We are on the precipice of another one of those, you know, events in human history, and we're right in the middle of it. Like, it's happening right before us. So the next five years, the next 10 years, I don't know what's gonna happen, but there's gonna be amazing things that happen in healthcare, in society, in banking, in all of these areas, right, that we're on the precipice, and I think it's gonna be a wild ride for sure. But I also think we have an opportunity to influence that, right? We have an opportunity to participate in it and not run away from it. Mm-hmm. So, so that's what we're, we're doing. And we, we spend a lot of time in my role thinking about the future and looking at different, uh, solutions and, uh, you know, looking at ways that we can apply those to improve patient care and improve diagnostic testing.

Duane Newton 1:21:18

One of the things that I always take away... There's, there's several things that I always take away from every conversation that I have with you, and the first is this feeling of just by talking to you, my eyes come up and I look around and I am more aware. You know, because I feel like, you know, I'm on this thing and I'm putting one foot in front of the other, and every time we talk, you encourage me, force me, guide me into looking out and around and think- and seeing and appreciating what's out and around, and I, um, want to thank you for that. I, I think the other, uh, thing that I want to acknowledge is, you know, you called yourself a nerdy little kid that liked to read books in the library and, you know, you're the most well-read, well-versed, citing literature person that I know. And, um, I think that is a huge and tremendous skill and gift that you have that-- and I appreciate you sharing that, um, with me personally, and I'm sure that anyone who listens to this is, um, gonna be excited and enthusiastic which-- about those topics, which is the, the third thing, is that your energy and enthusiasm for learning and growing is, um, pun intended, infectious. Yeah. And I, um, I appreciate it. I want to close with, um- I'm gonna try to keep composed by sharing this. I'm gonna close with a, a, a heartfelt thanks to you, and I'm gonna read a poem, um, that you shared with me, uh, during a really tough time. And I can remember, uh, where I was sitting and how I was feeling, um, during that time. And, uh, you shared, you know, some personal things from your family and your life that, um, I didn't know about that were, um, similar and, and just the empathy was genuine, and I appreciate it. And, um, this poem Uh, it, I think it started or reinforced my, um, my love of trees, including this one that's behind me Yeah this, uh, is this 200-year-old or 150-year-old oak tree that is along this running path that I go by frequently, and every time I do, I touch it. Um, the, the poem that you shared with me is called Good Timber, and I'm not sure how to pronounce the g- his last name, Douglas Malloch. M-A-L- Yeah L-O-C-H The tree that never had to fight for sun and sky and air and light, but stood out in the open plain and always got its share of rain, never became a forest king, but lived and died a scrubby thing. The man who never had to toll... Excuse me. The man who never had to toil to gain and farm his patch of soil, who never had to win his share of sun and sky and light and air, never became a manly man, but lived and died as he began. Good timber does not grow with ease. The stronger wind, the stronger trees. The further sky, the greater length. The more the storm, the more the strength. By sun and cold, by rain and snow, in trees and men, good timbers grow. Where thickest lies the forest growth, we find the patriarchs of both. And they hold council with the stars, whose broken branches show the scars. Of many winds and much of strife, this is the common law of life And I, I read it and I know it's very, uh, paternalistic and talks about men and patriarchs. Um, you know, I think I'll... maybe I'll write a, um, more gender inclusive version of it. Yeah. Um, but people, um- People who haven't had to toil, haven't had to grow and get stronger.

John Osiecki 1:26:30

For sure.

Duane Newton 1:26:31

And, um, I think, you know, what I, what you shared and what that did for me was, um- It gave me hope When I wasn't really feeling a lot of it.

John Osiecki 1:26:54

Yeah.

Duane Newton 1:26:54

And, um, and so this, you know, this symbol of a tree, and I look at that tree and it's got, you know, um, half of its side, the limbs are trimmed off because it grew in this place that turned into a farm field and they made a sidewalk by it and have, um, electric lines. You know, one of that, that pole is a, is an electrical pole. Yeah. Um, and so they trimmed half the tree down to accommodate our electricity and still it's there, you know. And, um, so that tree's symbolic and trees in general are symbolic to me and, and, um, and that's something that, you know, this poem and your friendship and your thoughtfulness and your empathy, um, were, were and have always been very much appreciated and I just wanna thank you for that.

John Osiecki 1:27:56

Yeah, you bet. No, the feelings are mutual and I love that poem 'cause I think it really does illustrate... It changes the narrative. I feel like so many people in society are, feel like they're the victim, and I think that changes the narrative. This is the way, you know? Adversity is the way. If you wanna grow, if you want strength, you have to embrace the challenges of life. And we as parents, you know, I think that there's this philosophy of protecting everyone from challenges, and that's not why we're here. We're here to grow and learn, right, through those, and I think that poem illustrates it very well. Yeah, this has been a real pleasure, Duane, to talk with you and, uh, yeah, super excited about the future.

Duane Newton 1:28:38

Thanks, John. Thanks. I appreciate you.

John Osiecki 1:28:40

Yeah, you bet.

Duane Newton 1:28:42

Take care.

John Osiecki 1:28:43

Okay, see ya.

1:28:49

If you're enjoying Navigating Your Path, please be sure to like or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to directly connect with me, you can reach out via my podcast email, which is listed in the description of this episode. The description also contains the links to the podcast website and YouTube channel, where you can check out more of my content. Feel free to reach out if you'd like to share any comments or even make suggestions about future topics to discuss. I'd also love to hear from you if you have suggestions for people for me to interview, or even if you'd like to come on the podcast and be interviewed by me. You can also contact me if you'd like to learn more about what it is that I do as a professional development coach. I look forward to having you join me next time. Take good care