Duane Newton 0:06

Hi, and welcome to Navigating Your Path. I'm your host, Duane Newton. This episode is a real gem. I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation, and I know you'll love it, too. I had the great pleasure of sitting down to chat with Dr. Kyle Rodino, assistant director of the Clinical Microbiology Laboratory and director of the Rittenhouse Molecular Laboratory at the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania. Kyle is a relatively new addition to my network, having gotten to know him over the past few years since establishing the Path Lab Happy Hours. I've always enjoyed his insights and perspectives, and this episode will give you all a chance to experience not only his thoughtfulness but also his determination and tenacity. Kyle shares wonderful stories about what he felt like was an idyllic upbringing in coastal Connecticut. He talked about the impact of a peer mentoring program he participated in during high school and how it laid the foundation for him to be able to connect and communicate with people from very diverse backgrounds. He revealed how his interactions as an undergrad at UNC Chapel Hill with clinical microbiology legend Peter Gilligan were really a turning point that helped him find his calling. We also commiserated about what we've learned about progressing up the career ladder in academic institutions. Kyle humbly described his professional portfolio as a, quote, "collection of practical solutions developed in the face of chaos." To me, this really supports the notion that being a jack-of-all-trades is valuable and promotable for clinical microbiologists. I almost made it through the whole episode without getting emotional, but alas, it was not to be. Please enjoy my conversation with Kyle Rodino What's been going on?

Kyle Rodino 2:15

Um, I don't know. Lots of system stuff.

Duane Newton 2:19

Yeah.

Kyle Rodino 2:20

Hmm.

Duane Newton 2:20

It's, um... seems like this has been a summer of lots of different weird things going on, and-

Kyle Rodino 2:30

Yeah. Yeah

Duane Newton 2:31

uh, uh, my introduction back into public health has put me right into the- Mm-hmm to the mix of all that. We had a interesting LRN-related event this week that's been ongoing, but still it's kind of-- I think it's winding down. So, uh, a real live thing as opposed to an exercise, so that was interesting to see all of those parts kind of moving and coming together.

Kyle Rodino 3:04

Yeah. Yep.

Duane Newton 3:07

Well, the, um, the format for this is not unlike what we're used to from a conversation standpoint on happy hours as, as we talked about before. You know, I don't, I don't have a script. I don't have a playbook. Um, I have a few thoughts in my head, um, but it really is just a conversation between two friends and colleagues talking about things that are important. And I, I think that the, you know, the thing that I've found fascinating as I've done more of these is just how, um, how unique everybody's journey is and how influential the early parts of our lives have been on, you know, getting us to the point that we are now. And so, you know, the, the early years, um, you know, where people grew up and the kinds of things that they were exposed to, the-- their family life, the, you know, what their parents did, what their families did, the towns they grew up in, um, all have had interesting impacts on folks. And I think that's, for me, has been, um, has been really interesting and a great way to connect with people, uh, and, and really feel like I'm getting to know them as a person. So that's where I've, I've really started out with the conversations is like- Where are you from? Where-- How did-- Where did you grow up? What was your family life like? And what, what did your parents do?

Kyle Rodino 4:59

Okay.

Duane Newton 5:01

So that's the question There isn't any real, like, "Okay, now we're gonna start recording," 'cause it's ABR, always be recording. And, uh, so anything that we say is kind of fair game unless you tell me no.

Kyle Rodino 5:17

Got it. So yeah, I, I grew up in New England. I grew, I grew up in Connecticut on, like, the far southeast corner, so border of Rhode Island on the water near all the old, like, uh, sh- shipping and kind of areas. Um, I'm an only child. People that know me m- might, might be able to tell that. I don't know. Uh, but I, like, I, I grew up in a fantastic family. My parents were, um... One of my parents is a teacher, the other one was a s- state police officer. They're not science people at all, but they really pushed me in, to, in all of those aspects of, of school, and I was from a young age really interested in science, so I guess it started w- there, and with their encouragement. Um-

Duane Newton 6:10

Before you get off that, I, I have to go into the state police officer. If I remember correctly, and I don't know why this is sticking in my head, but I feel like the Connecticut state police officer uniforms are really, like, opulent and shar- You know, like, there's a lot going on with... I seem to remember some kind of, like, belt across the chest, and the big flat cap, and-

Kyle Rodino 6:38

Yeah, yeah. They, they, they are rather, uh, elaborate in their dress v- version. Yes, yes.

Duane Newton 6:46

Mm-hmm.

Kyle Rodino 6:46

I remember that as a kid too when my dad would get dressed up in for particular special occasion things and those th- Yep.

Duane Newton 6:55

My dad was in the military, and they had, um, you know, similar high-level dress uniforms that... Uh, I remember sort of like a, a short coat tuxedo that he wore- Yeah with all of his stuff on. Yeah. So yeah. So okay, so then science at an early age. What was, where was that- Do you remember things that kind of sparked that interest?

Kyle Rodino 7:27

You know, like, like little fading images on a, like a movie reel, you know? I have like little things. I, I remember having some really influential middle school level science teachers. I remember, um, I can't remember what grade that it was, something like sixth or so grade, a teacher who really, like put in a lot of extra effort, like after school sort of time on these special science projects that led me to do like the middle school science fair. You know, at, at the earliest age you could do it. I remember I had a science project, it was called the coefficient of restitution of golf balls and its impact- on like distance. And my dad and I built like this, uh, golf ball hitting machine, a very rudimentary one with a spring and an old golf club, and I learned how, you know, the plasticity and the how solid or soft the golf ball was impacted how far it went, like as a little kid. Uh, that was really, really cool. Um, I remember in one of those middle school age grades getting the opportunity to do a summer program called Project Oceanology, where I spent like weeks with this group that would go out and measure the oxygen and the salinity in the marshland and catch crabs and measure them and survey the, you know, s- shellfish in the, the area. I- just like things now that just seem like so lucky and, uh, and all of that, like the curiosity part, the variety, the, the new things you can learn, being exposed to all that. I've- all of those are little pieces along the path

Duane Newton 9:15

What was high school like?

Kyle Rodino 9:18

I, I had a-- I loved high school. My high school was… I went to a really large high school, like 500 and something kids per, per class. So lar- large for our area. I don't know. Mm-hmm. People will probably say that's small, but, you know, 2,400 or so kids in the school. Um, it's kind of like a mini college, college campus organization. You change buildings. The buildings are by subject. And, uh, yeah, you know, really was into math and science a lot during high school as well. Um, it's always been a thread, for sure. Like, definitely knew I was doing something in the science arena. Cer- uh, probably like most, most kids that are interested in that, thought it was medicine, thought it was being a physician, um, early on. But, you know, pa- paths change, but the thread is the same and- Mm-hmm and the interest early.

Duane Newton 10:10

What were kinds of other things that you were involved in when you were in those- Oh, yeah formative years?

Kyle Rodino 10:17

Lots of things. I, I did, um… I was in a lot of sports. I played, played soccer for four years and then actually played a little bit on a, on a, like, national club team for UNC when I was in college. I played, played golf in, um, in high school and still, and then played a lot of golf after college for a while while I was working. Um, still like to play when I can. Um, I was in a group, uh, called Project Outreach. It was sort of like a mentorship and, uh, mediation type group of students. When there was, like, student-to-student conflict, we would sit down with them. You know, in- instead of a authority figure at the school, it, it would be like a guidance counselor and a, and a peer, and we'd work on mediation and those types of things. Um, I don't know. I was, like, a, a very active high school time, and really look back on it fondly, like a idyllic type of place and, and opportunity and friends and community and all that stuff.

Duane Newton 11:24

That, um, the peer-to-peer conflict resolution, that's a really interesting and a unique experience.

Kyle Rodino 11:34

I would say the thing I think about the most with it is how it really broadened my community. Um, you know, I came from a very small town, like- You know, 40 kids in our graduating class that fed into this larger high school. Um, where, you know, it's- there's one traffic light and not really much going in that, in that town. So exposure's pretty minimal in that- Mm-hmm setting. Then you go to a bigger high school where there's considerably more diversity for the region, not probably on a city, large city type scale, but considerably more. And when you're involved, frankly, in like particular clubs of interest and sports and stuff, I, I would say you still end up in a pretty narrow group of individuals. You have a, a very similar background interest to- that leads you to those types of hobbies. In this, like, Project Outreach, which is about community service and partially the mediation and, you know, um, mentoring and guiding and helping people, the people that flock to that are not necessarily of the same background. They... So I learned a lot about people and their differences and, um, accepting them and getting to know them and working through things on a level that was much different than, say, growing up in this really small town type thing.

Duane Newton 13:03

Yeah. Mm-hmm. I can imagine. I mean, it seems obvious and to say it out loud, but that had to have a huge impact on you and, and sort of provided you with an opportunity to develop skills and perspectives that you have to still be using.

Kyle Rodino 13:24

Uh, uh, yeah. I, I do still think back on some of our retreats where we would work on just the way we frame our conversation, the words that you use to, i- in a very intentional way. Telling people how, instead of telling people what they did, telling them how you made them feel Uh, or they made you feel, sorry. Mm-hmm. You know, you lead with I, I feel-

Duane Newton 13:52

When you, because

Kyle Rodino 13:53

when- When you, instead of saying, "You did this." It, it's, uh... Yeah, there's, there's still things where I find myself reorganizing the way I'm gonna say something before I say it, and I'm thinking about when I was in 10th grade, and I got that experience on this, like, retreat with people, and now it's still something I-

Duane Newton 14:18

Mm-hmm

Kyle Rodino 14:18

employ and, and try to be, like, c- uh, cognizant of. Like, a thing that you may not do if, if your subconscious is not kicking in. Mm-hmm. A thing that's easy to, to say things in a different way or come off in a way that is less productive or shut somebody down. And now still think back to, you know, 25 years ago and learning to reframe or res- you know, reword things to st- to talk to people. Mm-hmm. To get them to listen and not feel attacked. Yeah.

Duane Newton 14:53

That's, um, that's really cool to have that ki- that kind of experience a- at a young age. Uh, I wonder w- was there any from, you know, kind of a mentor standpoint, was there anybody in particular that stands out during that time, whether it was with that- Experience or, you know, through high school, I had, you know, I had a... I went to a Catholic high school and there w- the Irish Catholic nun, Sister Christine Julie, who was my science teacher my freshman year and my senior year, was, she was that person for me. "Mr. Newton." Can still hear her voice, you know. And she pushed me and supported me in a variety of different ways that... And that was, you know, she was the one that In, in many ways influenced me, you know, to, to go down the science path and when I got to college. Um-

Kyle Rodino 16:00

Yeah, the person who ran that program, her name was Kathy Micklum. She was like this incredibly, um, kind and understanding individual who also, um, never let you slip, and was, uh... Didn't, didn't back down from anybody, and was everyone's fiercest advocate when they needed it. She had this incredible, uh, personality and, um, so yeah, I learned a lot from, from her. She was extremely supportive. She also would not hesitate to, um, put you in your place when you needed it. Um, one of our... There were multiple principals at this school, by the way the place is designed. I have a f- a principal, her name is Jackie Sullivan. She is an, an, a family friend from, from my mom's side of childhood, but also then was one of my principals while I was in high school, and she was a huge supporter of me and where I wanted to go, and what I wanted to do, and still is, um, still is that way, you know, decades later. Yeah.

Duane Newton 17:18

W- that I, I value those- I have a few of those in my life like that- Yeah that go back that far. So that's-- those are precious. What is the-- what was the transition to college? You know, how was, how did that What was that process like for you?

Kyle Rodino 17:42

Um, it, it was, it was great, I think. I went to, uh, the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill. Um, I knew I wanted to go away for my college experience. I wanted to be on my own. I wanted to be somewhere different. I wanted a bigger place coming from a 2,500-kid high school. I wanted to go to someplace significantly larger. Um, it didn't hurt that it was in, like, a, one of the most beautiful places in the country. Uh, right, awesome. Great weather. Um, you know, the transition to f- from being an only child to then being really far away on your own was a little bit of an adjustment. I'll, I'll say it was hard to be away, so far away from, from your family. Um, but I still, you know, saw my parents a lot, talked to them a lot, all that. But, you know, the, the adjustment, I think the largest adjustment was to being, you know, completely independent and maintaining that level of scholarly activity when there's infinite other things to be doing and-

Duane Newton 18:49

Mm-hmm

Kyle Rodino 18:50

yeah.

Duane Newton 18:52

Well, I think it, one of the things that I know we'll talk about is this. You, you said something on one of the happy hour calls that I thought was, um, really insightful and very deep and real, and it's like there is no work-life balance. It's life balance. You know, it's all of these things are part of our lives. And, uh, so I can imagine, I mean, I'm hearing a little bit of that in, in there. You know, you've got an academic life, and you've got a social life and a family life and, and, and that's that juggling act. You know, you're getting, um, a crash course into- How to manage it all

Kyle Rodino 19:47

Yeah, I would say crash course is a pretty good w- word to describe that early phase there. I w- I will say that ma- that, uh, I didn't have the most, um, uh, stellar, glowing undergraduate career in the academic world, which-

Duane Newton 20:06

I'm so happy to hear you say that.

Kyle Rodino 20:09

Which is to say that when, maybe when you think about, uh, balance and considering everything part of life, and I don't necessarily separate things, it, it takes a little practice to get used to that-

Duane Newton 20:21

Yeah s-

Kyle Rodino 20:22

strategy. But, you know, I, I mentioned, I thought, like, like, maybe a lot of people, you think you're gonna go to college and do some generic science major, and you'll be pre-med, and you'll go here. And I got about halfway through, and I didn't really wanna go to medical school anymore, and I think I was a little bit lost in what to do, and definitely affected my undergraduate time. I mean, and, you know, we, we can talk about how, um, surprising, and things come into your life, and it completely changes your pathway. But I'll, I'll say, like, you know, it was a bit to figure out as an undergrad. Like, what... I know I, these things are interesting to me, but I don't have this, like, straight direction, linear path that I know I wanna take anymore. What am I gonna do? There's, like, a lot of kind of figuring out in that period of time

Duane Newton 21:19

I, I had the same experience, but it was You know, much later, I think I had already graduated and then started into graduate school because I, I still had the same thing, you know, like I like science, that equals medical school, you know, kind of thing. Uh, but I, I wasn't convinced of it. You know, going in, we... At our university, we actually had a major in pre-medical studies, and I chose to come in as an undeclared science major, you know, just kind of generic and then declared biology. Um, but, you know, kind of going down that pre-med pathway. And I remember, you know, I went so far as, you know, studying for, uh, taking the MCATs and applying to medical schools and all that kind of stuff. And I can remember the summer I guess it was the summer after my junior year, you know, s- quote, unquote, "studying for MCATs." And, you know, I'm looking at these pages and nothing's Nothing's going in. I'm just turning the, turning the page, you know? And, and I look back on it and it was like I, I had no... I didn't, I didn't know how to... I didn't know the feeling and I didn't know what to do about it, and I didn't even know how to recognize it, but I had no passion for it, and it... I was going through the motions and doing what I thought I was supposed to do.

Kyle Rodino 23:00

Yeah.

Duane Newton 23:01

And, um, you know, I started... I applied. I was not, you know, academically stellar either, I think for a lot of the re- the same reasons. I mean, it just kind of progressed and I, um, I was still in that ki- on that kind of pathway, but, um, nothing was really clicking. And, um, when I... You know, I kind of got, I got wait-listed at one medical school, didn't get into others. I didn't really have... I had geographic restrictions because of where, um, where I was a resident and because of my GPA and s- you know, MCAT scores and that kind of stuff didn't... So I ended up going to grad school where I went to undergrad thinking, um, I would be able to kind of get my shit together from an academic standpoint and make myself a little more, um, attractive to these programs. But then I started see- You know, a lot of my good friends were first-year med students, and they were getting blown away academically. And I'm like, "Jesus, if they, these guys who I think, you know, were really smart and capable and are having to retake anatomy because they flunked, what am I gonna experience?" So that was my, my wake-up call, and it ended up, you know, I ended up being in a program and having other people around me that kind of It's like, uh, some light bulbs started going off and I started to feel a connection and feel some motivation and, you know, in, in microbiology and infectious disease and that kind of stuff. So I, I get it and, um But it was a very bumpy path.

Kyle Rodino 25:03

Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of people with not so straight, uh, paths to, to where... Yeah, it takes some figuring out to be in this sort of field and, you know, even to learn of it. It's not the most well advertised. It's not the top of everybody's list. It's relatively small. It takes a while to really understand.

Duane Newton 25:25

So what was the... What, you know, when the light bulb started going off for you, what, you know, what was that like? What were the things that were happening that put you down that road?

Kyle Rodino 25:37

Yeah. So as a first semester freshman, I... UNC does this thing or did, did this thing, I don't know if they still do, where you take a freshman, what they call freshman seminars. These are like small group classes, maybe 20 students. Usually the professor is like, I'll say like the, a full professor at the peak of whatever they do. They teach like this niche topic thing. That semester, in what I think was only twice in his entire career, Peter Gilligan taught a freshman seminar on emerging infectious diseases, and I was one of those 20-something students in that class. So brand new. It's my favorite class. It's really, really interesting. Uh, but it's sort of like, hey, it's this freshman seminar thing. You take it for the seminar, the, the semester, and it's over. And then so we... It was great. I did really well in that class. I really liked Dr. G. And, uh, but I sort of let it go. You know, I was still on the med school train at that point. Um, so then end of sophomore year, sometime in junior year or something, I'm in this place where like, you know, I don't really know what I wanna do. I'm doing average, uh, in my classes. They're, you know, they're, I'm doing fine, but I'm not doing great. Um, and I just cold emailed him. I just cold emailed him and said, "I took your freshman seminar. I don't know if you remember that. Uh, I really liked it. I'm at this point where I don't really know what I wanna do, but I know that that was really interesting. Is, do you ever do any undergraduate research opportunity things within the clinical lab, et cetera?" And I got this like very immediate reply of, "I absolutely remember who you were. You were like really great in that class and I loved teaching it. And, and, uh, I've always wanted an un- undergrad to do research, but I've never known how to go about getting one to do it. So why don't you just like come by next week and we'll talk about thing." So that- Um, one-off email led to, uh, some volunteer research in the lab for a few projects, some funded summer things that he pulled out of who knows what grant to be able to support me to live there and stay and do some work. I changed my major to clinical laboratory science, as it was called at the time, so medical laboratory science now, and UNC has a undergraduate, um, degree in, in medical lab science that lets you get the degree and sit for your boards. Um, obviously, and then became connected with Dr. Melissa Miller. At the same time, she was, you know, co-directing the lab with, with Peter Gilligan at the time, and that's the launching point of sort of everything, connecting to the two of them. Um, you know, it goes as far as, like, when I finished my bachelor's degree. I, I knew I wanted to work for a while. I was pretty tired of going to school at that point, and so I worked for UNC Hospitals Micro Lab for four and a half years and did extra research projects with them. And I think everyone thought I'd hang around for six to nine months, a year, apply to grad school, and I was there for much, much longer. But I would definitely not change any part of that timeline. The experience in the four and a half years was worth way more than anything I could have done otherwise. But, but you know, that, that was the, that was the switch. It was a, it was a reach out for some help from a person who I had known briefly, uh, but I thought that their job was really cool

Duane Newton 29:32

You know, we have, um... I'll, I'll-- If we have time, I'll share my Peter Gilligan story and the impact that he had on me. Um, but I wanna hear more about, you know, the next steps and y- So was it you saw what Dr. Gilligan and Dr. Miller were doing and thought, you know, "That's what I wanna do"?

Kyle Rodino 30:03

That's exactly what it was. I mean, so I started in the clinical lab working for them, right? So, and, and then after a couple years, I joined as a hospital employee. It's a, it's a kind of a, I would say a, a tough direction to go. You're, like, working on all these cutting-edge projects. You're... It's very exciting to work for the directors of the lab and hear, like, all of the things that they consider and why, why are they interested in particular projects, and how is it influential. And there, you, you, you know, absorb a little bit of the connection to the clinical side and the patient and their ID colleagues and all those things. And then, uh, and then I had, like, a day job, right? Like I had a b- a bench to do, but that stuff was still really interesting to me. So, um, again, extremely lucky to work with the people that I work with, worked with at UNC. I could do all my, my day job work. I worked in the login and spress- specimen processing area in the evening for, like, quite a long time, pro- probably because it allowed me to play golf every single morning before I went to work, but so I stayed there a while. And, but then I moved to, I kind of had this, um, this, like, Swiss Army knife position at the end. Like, I did a one month in the immunology lab doing, like, uh, you know, HIV tests and Anaplasma ehrlichia serologies and allergy testing, and then I'd go for the next month into bacteriology and do the urine culture bench or something, or whatever, the blood culture bench. And then sometimes I rotated back up and covered over the processing space. Like, it was kind of got to experience everything in, in being there in the evening and needing some molecular coverage. I- and that was sort of taking off in that part of the laboratory. Did a little bit of that too. So it was fun to get the opportunity to be exposed to so much of the laboratory very early on. Continued to work on sort of separate projects, attend some of the, like, plate rounds with the, when the ID fellows came through. The flexibility was really great, but you're absolutely right. There came the point, even though I really liked playing golf and I was very happy in the position that I was in, that I wanted the responsibility and the role and the decision maker piece, and I wanted to understand the laboratory and microbiology on a medical sense in, in a much higher level. I wanted to, you know, chart the course and, and, and direct a lab, and there was only one way to do that, and that was to go back and get my doctorate and then go to a fellowship and come through ABMM and then that piece.

Duane Newton 32:57

So what was that... Well, wait a minute. Before we get to those next steps Are there, not that you could, you know, identify just one, but are there some, like, high impact, um takeaways from that experience working on the bench that, you know, kind of similar to your peer, peer conflict resolution kind of experience. This is another In many ways, it's a, it's a very peer environment working together kind of management, um, experience. W- and what are some things that you've, that you can remember taking away that you, you know, in your role now, that has had an impact on you, or that you remember, that, or you apply?

Kyle Rodino 34:03

You know, having a bench technologist background is one of the, um, things I'm most thankful for in my current role. I... The, the process and workflow and, um, lab environment just come so second nature. But it's something that I regularly, like, try not to take for granted. I mean, it's, it helps so much to understand how a technologist may view a workflow change or a new test implementation. And even if I'm t- too far removed from that at this point however many years later, at least I remember to ask.

Duane Newton 34:48

Mm-hmm.

Kyle Rodino 34:49

Uh, because I would say, like, one of the pieces I learned in that part is, like, the science is cool, the advancement is great. It's all probably needed from a patient standpoint, but if it's unsustainable or doesn't flow well in the lab, or we skip the implementation optimization part, it's gonna fail. Um, so I think I learned from that time a lot about, um, understanding the lab workflow, being very intentional in the way that you roll o- roll things out and pressure test them and get feedback before you go launching into something that immediately blows back at you- Mm-hmm when it doesn't work. I think the other thing during that time that sha- uh, shaped me a lot, so UNC had this really unique program as a hospital at this time. It was called the Lab Ambassador Program. Basically what they did is they took technologists and they linked them up to high user units. Mm-hmm. So depending on what lab you were in, that means different things, right? But for a microbiology lab, that was like the emergency department, some of the ICUs. Um, and it was the, the lab tech's job to go to those units, basically just walk, walk around and proactively seek out questions. So I would go to the ED, I'd stop by the charge nurse area. There's like a little- You know, space where some of the residents, the interns, the fellows, the attendings, whoever, are all hanging out, and you just introduce yourself and, you know, they eventually get to know who you are and that you come around every so often. But then you, the job was really like, what are you struggling with from a micro lab standpoint? What's not working? What don't you understand? Is there something that I could clarify, sort of things. And the, the job was less about giving immediate answers and more about listening and eliciting feedback- Mm-hmm and then bringing that back to talk about. It led to some changes in workflows and testing updates in what we did, but it also just led to, I think, a much smoother channel of communication where, like, you realize most of the problems are products of themselves, and there isn't really a problem. It's mostly one, one party doesn't understand one thing. The other party can't understand why the other party doesn't understand the one thing, and then they get in a fight with each other about something that has nothing to do with the actual issue. That, that I say was a, what I would say is a pretty, um, good formative experience for someone who wants to be a lab director.

Duane Newton 37:37

Hmm. We, um, we stole that from UNC and im- and implemented it at Michigan. And I think, um, if I remember, I had some... I had the opportunity to interact with the lab, um, the UNC lab on, uh, several occasions. Melissa Jones?

Kyle Rodino 38:01

Yeah.

Duane Newton 38:02

Um, I believe she had a, a large role, leadership role within the laboratory in that. Um, but we, all the things that you'd described, the reasons why, uh, and the impact that it has, and, uh, I think those clearly justified it, um, the value of it. I think the other thing that I feel like it helped, um, as well is to put some perspective on w- um, for the technologists to understand w- how they fit into everything else that's going on. Because it's really... An- and one of the things that I worked a lot on is to help bring that perspective because we look, we're a very micro-centric universe.

Kyle Rodino 39:00

Mm-hmm.

Duane Newton 39:01

And to understand how, and, and, and even that micro is just one part or one piece of information that everyone is taking into consideration in how these, how a patient or a group of patients are being managed. And, um- you know, we get in a kerfuffle about something and You know, to be able to appreciate that in the context of this patient, that's way down on the kerfuffle list relative to other things that are happening with them. And so I think that helped. You know, those are thi- concepts that I tr- you know, would try to reinforce when we're f- you know, having challenging cases. But it provided, um, you know, some support. Their experiences and having the conversations with people directly, and then coming back to the lab and, you know, kind of reinforcing that, I think, um, went a long way to hel- helping people understand how we fit into the bigger picture.

Kyle Rodino 40:15

Yeah. Those are definitely the things I learned as a technologist. Melissa Jones was my boss for those years. I still see her once a year when we're in Clearwater for PASCV and, and have, have dinner with her. Um, there's another person who I can remember. In- incredibly influential in my journey as a technologist and then wanting to be a director. Taught me lots and lots of things about microbiology. Also taught me lots of things about interacting in a laboratory. I can remember when I was first in there as an undergraduate researcher. I worked, like, in the afternoon. Like, most of the lab was sort of finishing up by the time I was getting out of class and going in there. And, uh, I had been doing, like, a whole bunch of subcultures r- for something, and I... uh, all, all the, like, r- red bin trash bags, you know, were, like, more than three-quarters full when I got there that day. So I, like, finished up my work, and I put my plates in one, and then they didn't all fit, so I put some in another, and they didn't all fit, so I put some in another, and they didn't all fit. And the next day when I went in there, uh, all of the boxes of trash were over by the area that I worked. And when I showed up, Melissa, uh, kindly showed me how to bag up, seal, and remove and then make new biohazard trash bags the next, for the next time.

Duane Newton 41:38

This is how you take out the trash, Kyle.

Kyle Rodino 41:41

Yes. That was a very, uh, important lesson for me, and I I remember Melissa teaching me while I was there.

Duane Newton 41:50

In a very gentle- and, and maybe genteel way. Yeah. She was sh- I remember her being very super, super smart, super kind- Mm-hmm um, person too. Like, yeah. That, that resonates. So the, the path out of, you know, from the bench to grad school was to where and fellowship and that- Was that a pretty, pretty easy jumps? I mean, it seems like, okay, you've got this, I know what I need to do, and so it's just like knock it out.

Kyle Rodino 42:31

Yeah. Y- yes and no. Okay. So not, not direct again. I actually applied to graduate school through two cycles. I did not get into or chose not to go to the places the first go around. Again, I had a- Average undergraduate career. A pretty good, uh, career in my MLS program. I had a lot of interesting direct clinical and translational research experience, but that's not at the top priority of a lot of academic microbiology graduate schools, so I... Um, but I ended up going to Virginia Commonwealth University School of Medicine in Richmond. Um, I joined the laboratory of Dr. Jason Carlion when I was there. Um, I would say, so the transition was really easy. I went from, you know, at that, that point I had been up working, like, the regular bacteriology sort of schedule, so, you know, early starts, uh, full days. So going from a, a working environment where you're in the lab by 7:30 and, like, going to graduate school was a great transition for me. I was up. I was at my classes. I was working really hard. It was, it was the right choice for me. It takes a little bit of time to work and then go back to school. So I... And I left a well-paying job to go be a stipended grad student, right? So I treated it like my full-time job, and that really helped me during graduate school. The other thing, as you mentioned, like, the plan is now very clear. I'm going here. I'm doing this to get the next step, to get the next step. I had those conversations, uh, early and open with the people that I was going to potentially join their labs. And I remember Jason basically saying, um, you know, the level of productivity and the work ethic expected here is really high. Um, and so as long as you're doing your part, everything else you wanna do is total- is, like, basically up to you. If you... 'Cause I had said, you know, I wanna stay connected to infectious diseases while I'm here. I wanna go to whatever their version of grand rounds or management conference or, is. I probably wanna stay, get connected with the VCU clinical micro lab. It was Chris Doern was just coming into his role at the time. I probably wanna do a little bit with, with him. Um, you know, I'm going to be very focused at the end of my time on these fellowship applications and interviews and what, I'm, I'm gonna need some flexibility in that. So a- and he gave me, you know, the assurance of as long as I, again, like, I did my part, all those other opportunities were fair game. And that it was basically just came down to could I manage all of the things I wanted to do. Um- And, and he told me basically no one from his laboratory had ever gone through some type of a path like that, so he couldn't help me in the way maybe his connections to great post-doc laboratories could help other people, but that he'd put the same level of backing and effort and support behind me in those things. So that was great. That was like the green light to if... And my goal in graduate school, knowing that I wanted to go to a clinical fellowship and then be a lab director, was I wanna go to a lab that can, um, help me fill my toolbox as much as possible while I'm there, knowing that I'll probably never do a Western blot again in my life. But the challenge of learning a variety of new techniques, um, figuring them out on your own, troubleshooting them, the scientific process part of why, you know, as, you know, a CPEP director now, why I look for really good scientists. I knew I wanted to, to fill that part, and I felt that that lab could give me the most opportunity at exposure to new things and autonomy in my science and challenging projects and interesting, you know, organisms. So it was a really exciting time. I, I loved my grad school years even though all of that academic work, I knew I would never package it into a portfolio to go build my own research lab

Duane Newton 47:08

That, um, how did that make you feel? Like, did it matter To you that that was like four or five years of stuff that It, I could, I could imagine that feelings of what, you know, every once in a while like, "Why the hell am I doing this? Why do I..." You know, that it, that would pop up.

Kyle Rodino 47:39

Yeah.

Duane Newton 47:39

Um, that's, you know, one question. I think the other question too is in that space of like having, having that independence that, you know, being a PhD student gives you. Like you have, you're working under, you have expectations that are being set and, you know, y- you, you guys outline an approach to take and then, okay, go do it. And make sure you let me know if you run into any problems. And, um, you know, but it's kind of like you're, you're given, you're given the keys to the car and go drive and, um, you're gonna get flat tires and you're gonna get, you know, you're not-- you're gonna forget to change the oil. And, you know, so And you don't have, um, necessarily in the context of that program role models for the things that you are aspiring to do. So it's a kind of a multilayered complex question. But, you know, I'm doing stuff that I know is getting me going, but I also, you know, like, I've gotta figure all this stu- I'm, I'm, I'm figuring all of this stuff out on my own.

Kyle Rodino 49:08

Yeah. I mean, I think, like, you can definitely imagine that you have this five-year sort of trajectory in front of you on day one, and you know the whole thing is just a means to an end. Like, really to do what I wanna do, all I need is my degree, and the content in between can s- I guess in that way could, could feel irrelevant to a lot 'cause it really, you know, it, it, it wasn't gonna be what I built my career on. That's true. I would say, though, that again, maybe the break gave me the time f- to ma- mature a little bit. I, I really, um, I was really thankful for the opportunity. Like, I had finally sort of s- crystallized what I wanted to do. I knew that being really successful in my graduate school career was still absolutely necessary for the next thing. I had been connected to the UNC fellowship. I knew the caliber of people that they were accepting into their program. I had a little bit of a look at what it took to get into the fellowship, and I could tell you what I, how I sort of looked at it was, um, I've been given this opportunity to go to graduate school with the intention that the only thing I wanna do with it is this fellowship.

Duane Newton 50:38

Mm-hmm.

Kyle Rodino 50:39

There's very few of them. I can leave no stone unturned and no regret during this five years where I s- when I don't get into fellowship and say, "I wish I would've done better at something."

Duane Newton 50:54

Mm-hmm.

Kyle Rodino 50:55

I went into that grad school program with the idea of I will look back and there will be nothing that I could not have done or that I, that I should have done. That would allow me to fail at that, at getting into a fellowship. So, n- so I, I... And the other great thing I think about that is I chose the right lab. I got these, I got put on the Orientia tsutsugamushi, uh, team, which is a, a, a m- a mite born pathogen of Southeast Asia that's sort of like a Rickettsia for people who d- don't know what that is. Uh, but it was, it was new and fresh and recently funded in the lab. There was a lot of prelim data that could fill 25 different projects. To be given the keys to the car and a bunch of really promising leads, and the choice of which one you wanted to work on, I mean, it was just really fun. It, it, it was a lot of work. You- you're right, there were a lot of flat tires and a lot of failures, but as a whole and the way it felt across the trajectory is that actually most of the stuff we thought of and tried and worked on did succeed 'cause it was, you know, well backed from the prelim data and we had a really good idea of where to go with some of the things. It also felt really exciting to explore ideas of your own and see where they went, and some of them stuck, so that was great, too. Um, but yeah. I think I f- I, I definitely get what you're saying where, like, I got there and I was like, "Okay, I just wanna get to the next step." Like, I got all this stuff in front of me that I, some of it I can't really control that I have to go through to get there. But I would say that I, like, largely lost track of time in that space in my life. Like, I liked what I did. It was rapidly progressing. There were lots of things that I could do to better my application and get ready for the fellowship process. It was fun. You know, my wife and I having our first place really in Richmond and some, some friends there. It was just a great time in, in our lives, and I wasn't in a huge rush in the end to get it sort of over with, but it all sort of worked together in that sense.

Duane Newton 53:19

H- how did you and your wife meet?

Kyle Rodino 53:22

Uh, we met at her friend's 21st birthday at UNC. I've known her for a v- a very long time now.

Duane Newton 53:32

And she followed you to... Were you, when, when did you get married?

Kyle Rodino 53:36

We got married when we, in grad school, in that first year. That was the other thing. I told them I was gonna do a, uh, I had a career aspiration that had nothing to do with academia. But, and I also told them that my wedding was planned for that summer and I was gonna take like three weeks off. Those were the two things of

Duane Newton 53:52

j-

Kyle Rodino 53:52

of joining the lab. So thank- thankfully, he, he was accommodating of both of them.

Duane Newton 54:01

Where Is there anyone that you can look at in your, in your life that you, was a model for this kind of drive and grit and focus?

Kyle Rodino 54:20

Yeah. Absolutely. I think, uh, I mentioned my parents were not science-y people, but I probably learned the most about being a scientist from them. I would say through everything, and I've been thinking a lot about this now too as I like advise other people and, and mentor folks and, but, but through that stretch, there's, there's no replacement for hard work. Uh, you may get lucky and have opportunities that appear to fall into your lap along the way, and there might be key people that you meet that certainly springboard your ability to get to the places where you want to be, but it still doesn't replace working hard. A lot of the opportunities I feel like I've gotten and the things that I, that I see people get now, they may not realize are not accidental pieces of luck opportunities. They're products of the hard work that goes unseen by them that other people see, and they, it, it goes together. So my parents worked, you know, they grew up in, um, in, in families in like a, you know, small communities kind of right around where I lived my entire childhood. They didn't necessarily have a lot when they grew up. They're, they're perfect examples of people creating the life and that they want to have and to support their ch- their, their child and their family in the way that they want to do. They're in- incredibly, incredibly hard workers and, you know, honest, uh, uh, people that, that, that got everything that they have now from their personal drive and, and their ability to buckle down and, and do, and do that. So I would say my, uh, m- m-... my model and hero in that space is not a science person. It's from seeing people do that in other arenas and then applying it to that.

Duane Newton 56:33

I, um A really I admire it a ton. Like, it's really, really cool to hear, um, hear you talk about it and to feel that, you know, kind of the emotion behind it. Um, the I don't think I could have, I could have gotten to where I am without similar attributes, but I've never really felt that I was that way. You know? I never felt like I was focused and driven and had that kind of clarity and, um And it's not until recently that you know, I've come to appreciate and, you know, leverage that work in, um How You know, that l-- what appears as luck, you, you said it's because of, it's because of hard work that you get those opportunities, and you're putting yourself-- What I feel like is you're putting yourself in a much gr- better position to You're, you're moving out and away from this little spot, and so your world is so much bigger. You know, the world of opportunities that you could take advantage of expands because you're working hard, you're accomplishing these things, you're getting these experiences, you're expanding your repertoire personally and professionally, and so things kind of hit at that. Mm-hmm. So it, that, that has become I've had more awareness around that, that, you know, that I feel like figuring out how to get out of my comfort zone and put myself in a position where I, I am pushing those boundaries and finding, you know, w- really where, you know, that my limits are really actually a lot further out than what I thought they were.

Kyle Rodino 59:06

Yeah. I mean, there's some quote about you can create your own luck, right? I think, I think hard work is a way to create your own luck. I would say expanding your network in a genuine way, and again, I think that's mostly related to work ethic, is, is really, really helpful. I think if you do it in a superficial way and it's not, y- you know, genuine and a real connection impactful that those opportunities because of that may not materialize. But I think if you're fully invested in what you're doing and the path you're trying to take, that those things, they fall into place. We can call that luck, but I think it's, it's really just a product of hard work

Duane Newton 59:57

And having your head up and eyes open.

Kyle Rodino 1:00:00

Yeah.

Duane Newton 1:00:00

Sure. And, and I would also say, you know, from a, from a mushy side, you having your heart open and, and being willing to receive, uh, being in that I'm open and looking and receptive- Mm-hmm to what's out there.

Kyle Rodino 1:00:19

Totally.

Duane Newton 1:00:20

And that kind of why not? Sure. Let's give it a try. Let's see what happens. What hap- how do you, like There are people that aren't like that. And, and I'm sure, like, I've worked with them and y- you know, you see them. They don't have that same kind of push How do, how do you, how do you manage that? How do you, how do you respond to that?

Kyle Rodino 1:00:59

Yeah. Um, this is another thing that I would say I learned a lot from Melissa Jones and I learned a lot from my time as a technologist in this am- ambassador role. I- and a thing that I try to work on a lot here is you don't know what motivates everybody. I was motivated by all of those things I saw that was exciting in the director level role, of the patient impact and the direct communication and the new technology. I was motivated by the lab work and the product and every- Some people are not motivated by, uh, that and they don't, they have no interest in hearing about all this new technology and how it's great and the advance it's gonna make. They're motivated by some personal aspect of the work that they do. They're motivated by a feeling of the community and helping people. They're motivated simply by the complexity of the culture workup or, or the, and the, like, pure science part of it. Sometimes they're motivated by their paycheck. Some people work in this field because they like it and it affords them the life that they wanna have outside of the laboratory. And I learned early that all of those things to me are equal. I would like to know what motivates you so I can think of that when I'm asking something unique or special outside of the procedure and I, I want... Or we have a project going on and I'm thinking about how it's gonna impact everybody and, uh, or there's some things where it's gonna necessitate some overtime by the way that it's gonna work because of some circumstance, and I know that there are some people that are not motivated by overtime. And they, the most important thing to them is when they clock out and they go pick up their kid and they go to their family. This job allows them to have some schedule that supports that. So I, when I think about, you know, if you're not motivated in a particular way and you're a little bit more head down in the work, very focused, and not interested in the extra pieces because whatever the... I think that's totally fine. Um, and I, so I think, like, what ultimately matters to me in this role now, and I think what I also thought about during grad school. During grad school, right, I wanted a laboratory that was really productive. And when I was working really hard, they were working really hard. And so one, one grant would come through and the rest of the lab would benefit and all that. I didn't really care what motivated them to do that. I cared that they were producing good science, and we were collectively succeeding. And we were going to get the next something because we all, we were all pushing and on our projects in different, but for different reasons probably.

Duane Newton 1:04:04

Mm-hmm.

Kyle Rodino 1:04:05

And, and now I care that people take their, that they understand the gravity of their work, and that they understand that patients benefit and physicians make decisions. And how well we do our work and how efficiently we do our work and, and how consistently we do our work is the answer to all of those things. But what motivates you to produce that really high quality product can be whatever it is for you

Duane Newton 1:04:39

I love that answer. And, um, yeah, as soon as I asked the question and you started talking, it reminded me of experiences that I've had as a dad with my kids. And this, um What's the right word? I wanted to say disconnection. Um, disali- misalignment or a diff- different, different alignment in, um... I guess it's misalignment in, you know, perspectives and approaches and motivations. And I, I had a, you know, a huge aha moment with my daughter when she was in high school in realizing the things that I was motivated by are not the things that she was motivated by. And the things actually that she was motivated by worked really well for her and, um, she was really good at. And I should shut the hell up you know, and let her, like, support the path in the way that she wants to do, you know, rather than try to force my, my motivations or perspectives or directives. And, you know, it was difficult, um You know, the, the, the aha moment was there, but the actual execution with both her and her brother, n- there's like four and a half years apart, and I was involved in, um, more so with my son but some with my daughter as a coach and, and helper or whatever in the different activities. But I was, I was very integrated into my son's athletics as a hockey player and coaching. And, you know, for all that I thought I learned with my daughter, I d- you know, did the same stupid shit with him and, uh, and had to r- had to realize, you know, what... relearn or recognize, you know, a different set of motivations for him than for her and for me. And, you know, so I think that it applies just, you know, to go back to what we were talking about before is we have life. We don't have work and home and, you know, we have life. And the approach that we're taking and things that are impacting us and influence us and that we value, we ap- you know, I don't think we have a different set of values. We have the same set of core values, and we apply them in all the situations that we're in. And I think, you know, that, that's part of what I, in my, my new role where I am, is applying those kinds of tool-- assessment tools and having those kinds of conversations with people to really understand, you know, what their motivations are, what their values are, how they communicate, um, you know, how they're showing up. And- Seeing and helping them understand the value of gaining that appreciation and understanding about each other. Mm-hmm. Them- themselves and each other, and that- that's the kind of, um, those are the kinds of things that I'm very strong proponent of. And, um, because I think those, you know, the person who's motivated by the paycheck, who's motivated by the community building, the altruism, the science, there's sometimes where those motivations conflict with each other.

Kyle Rodino 1:08:53

Mm-hmm.

Duane Newton 1:08:59

And I, I think, you know, the... By having these kinds of conversations, I hope that people start to understand and recognize and see that there are other perspectives that all kind of fit as pieces of this big puzzle together, uh, and that it's okay even if it's different. It's okay, and it's necessary and important, as you, as you articulated very well. So I, y- I'm hearing you... I was hearing you say this stuff back, and I, and I'm just, like, I'm having these flashbacks to these very pointed conversations with each of my kids in different times of my life about- I'm

Kyle Rodino 1:09:43

sure

Duane Newton 1:09:44

where I'm get- I'm on the receiving end of it. You know? It's, like, I'm getting it back,

Kyle Rodino 1:09:49

so. I'm, I'm sure that's in my future. I can already... I already get called out by my seven-year-old when I'm motivated by something, and he's like, "You should just do it for enjoy- like, because you enjoy it." Uh, yeah. That's in my future, for sure.

Duane Newton 1:10:09

Yeah. So the, um I want to get to-- We're, we're touching on a, a lot of these themes that I think are, are-- revolve around the approach that you take in, in your current role and as a leader, um, the things that are important to you, how, you know, what you try to articulate. You know, I want to give you a chance to kind of finish the rest of the story on, on how you, how you got there. But, you know, with an eye towards, again, you know, the people, the situations, the experiences that helped you continue to shape that 'Cause it's kind of like a big piece of clay that's getting molded, you know, and some things get thr- slapped on and some things get carved off. And, um, you know, through, through your graduate program and your, and your fellowship, you know, into your, into your, um, into your current role, you know, what, where are those... how is this contin- how is this story continuing to build for you?

Kyle Rodino 1:11:29

Yeah. You know, a- after graduate school, I was in- incredibly lucky to do my fellowship at Mayo Clinic. I would say at the point where I was with my experience in a l- clinical lab already and then the portfolio I had built research-wise, it was the perfect next step for me. Uh, uh, my, my fellowship time, I would say, like the, the really, um, what I needed out of my fellowship was director examples. I, I gained a lot of knowledge, uh, from a, from a medical microbiology content and, you know, uh, foundational pieces while I was a fellow. But what I was really ready for was to learn how to be a director, and it was most helpful for me to see seven people direct their individual laboratories through their own style and experience and expertise, and then file away examples of those things and think about, well, I wanna take this piece and I wanna take that sc- that piece, as you said, like, uh, in molding clay. I grabbed little pieces of all of those examples and said that, you know, this is, this is how I wanna handle that scenario going forward. Here's a really good example of building culture within a laboratory that needs it in this particular moment. Here's a great example of working with a challenging consult where they don't wanna hear your recommendation or they're, um... you know, the lab is trying to get them to understand why we, we do things in a particular way and it's not working. Here's how I wanna handle that. Um, so that directorship experience part at Mayo Clinic, in addition to seeing everything under the sun at a international reference laboratory with extreme volume and, you know, uh, cutting edge technology, all of those other things that you think of there. But the piece that was most important to my fellowship time and adding to what I already had in place was the witnessing people doing their job at a really, really high level. Um, and then, you know, taking that all here and trying to figure out how, what do I wanna build my portfolio on? What do I wanna build my foundation of how I, how I make decisions as a director, the, um, role I want to generally play for the laboratory. It's all crafted out of all of these different experiences over all these different sort of meandering ways I took through, through getting here. It's a, it, it, it, it's a sum of all of those parts.

Duane Newton 1:14:25

What is the thread that you feel like In that, in Up to this point in your career, like the thread that was, um, being woven through the things that you were doing was getting you to be to this point.

Kyle Rodino 1:14:42

Mm-hmm.

Duane Newton 1:14:44

And, um, I think, uh, especially in acade- primarily, I guess, at an academic institution, um We're challenged with having a story that, um, shows our unique experiences and skill sets and contributions to science and medicine and the institution. Yeah. Um, and I, I feel like in a field like, um, ours where we have-- our responsibility is to be, you know, to pro- perform at a high level everywhere and have a knowledge base across the spectrum of disciplines, um People, a, a good friend of mine, I won't divulge a name to protect the innocent, but someone has described, more than one person has described what we do as jack of all trades, master of none, and say it in kind of a derogatory, self-deprecate, you know, self-derogatory, putting themselves down. I, I don't have an expertise. It's like that is, like, the greatest set of skills and shows exactly why we are in these roles. And at the same time, there's a thread of a story that needs to be told if you're in an academic environment. Mm-hmm. Um, how have you started to weave that tapestry of your story?

Kyle Rodino 1:16:40

Yeah. It, uh, in, in an academic medical center, in a faculty promotion-led thing, you have to, you have to have that. Um, but you can be very clever in the way you build it. My academic area of focus or area of concentration, as we call it, is optimizing infectious disease diagnostics, and then it's my job to explain how I tether all my activities to that. I would say my thread, Duane, for all the years is, like, making practical decisions in the face of chaos I like to do things because they make sense. I like to do things because it keeps the patient and the ultimate goal in mind. I don't think that you need to build an academic career on flashy things. I think you can build quite a good academic career and promotional packet on, on pretty mundane things. On very practical things. And the jack-of-all-trades part is why I left my area of concentration so vague. So I'll give you a few examples. Over the, you know, I've been at Penn for six years. I've recently gone through the promotion process. And you can tether a lot of stuff to those things, and you can have a l- a lot of areas of interest. So, um, you know, chronologically, I guess, had a lot of... There's a lot of things that you could work on during COVID, a lot of things that were very distracting, a lot of things where there was not a clear answer, and I made what I would say were practical decisions during that time. I set up a, you know, sequencing program with colleagues here at Penn that really served some important, some things that we thought we needed to do in the region and that we didn't see happening, and I would say we did them, we did it because we thought it was the right thing to do at that time. I did not in any way outline all of the things we would produce and all of the things that would come of it when I submitted the justification packet to my vice chair when I was asking for a little money to get that off the ground. But we, but we did it because at that time it was, like, the right thing to do, and I would say we made some practical decisions on what things we wanted to focus on in that time I've recently done some work on, uh, clinical decision support and proper ordering and stewardship of tests. And would I have told you five years ago that that was gonna be a focal point of my career for some period of time? No. But there was a need for a solution to a problem that we had, and there were motivated people at, in a committee to work on it and, you know, be- because of that shared interest, it was successful. But a- again, it was practical. I've worked on-- I have a small development team that I'm very, very proud of here, and we've built 40-plus or so tests and enhancements to existing things over the last four and a half, five years since I've been here. Y- you know, is innovation a thing, uh, that is a niche interest of mine and I wanted to do? Yes. But also, does it tether, uh, to optimizing diagnostics across the system? Yes. And do I pick areas of focus and development because I think they're of high need, attainable, sustainable within the system, and practical solutions? Yep. During, you know, during the time of FDA attempted regulation of LDTs, that was a main focus of my, my efforts. And again, I think there are practical solutions to test regulation and oversight of laboratories that don't need big, giant, cumbersome oversight things. So I think that you can build a really good academic portfolio and a, and areas of expertise that ultimately do tie to one thing. It's, it's how you weave those things together

Duane Newton 1:21:01

Interesting that, um I don't remember exactly how I told the story from, to get promoted from assistant to associate. Um, I think, you know, I think it was very vague and very, um I- in some ways just kind of checking the boxes of the things, you know, like these many papers and these many activities and professional organizations at a, you know, at least at a regional level and, you know, service within the organiz- within the institution and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I think the, um, the step from associate to full was a, was a much higher step.

Kyle Rodino 1:21:58

Mm-hmm.

Duane Newton 1:21:58

And the interesting thing was I didn't-- I don't think I ever-- I didn't have this, um, a title like you described around any of the things that I was doing. But I think it really, you know, kind of similarly, um, phrased was more about what's the clinical impact of the, of the choices that we're making, and how do we show the value of that work, you know? So I think that was always a part of it, and this was at a time when, you know, we were first maybe even before we were doing any real outcome studies. And, um, the timing was such that we, you know, this is when MALDI was coming out, and we had a really excellent Still at U of M have a very excellent infectious disease pharmacy group. And it was like, wouldn't it be great to do this before and after study and show how having these rapid results have an impact on patients? Yeah, that sounds awesome. We can do that

Kyle Rodino 1:23:16

Yeah. And- Sounds pretty, like a practical thing to do, Duane

Duane Newton 1:23:19

It, yeah, it is very practical. And I think there were, you know, there were laboratory optimization things around it, but it's, okay, what is this? What is the impact gonna be? And that became the whole... And there's like three or four papers that came out of different things, maybe, maybe two or three papers that came out of different things around that. Mm-hmm. And that became my story. And it was like, it was almost like serendipity, but it was, "Yeah, let's try. Let's see." It's not easy You know, you gotta get a lot of people on board within the lab and outside of the lab, but It's so... W- I think the, the message is that, that I have tried to articulate to people who are just starting out their career is that there are a variety of different ways that this manifests itself, and you never know what it's gonna be, and you don't have to know Because there's a way to tell the story, 'cause everyone has one.

Kyle Rodino 1:24:42

I think, yeah, you're, you're absolutely right in that I think, again, if we could just, like, come back to the hard work part. If you f- if an opportunity presents itself, and you're all in, and you can build a team around you that, that can make the, the project successful, that's really what it's about. Like, most of the academic pro- pr- promotion criteria for me are around my s- you know, success in teaching. And again, I can tether a lot of the teaching to optimizing infectious disease diagnostics. We talk a lot about appropriate test utilization and giving good advice on... And it tethers to the performance of all the different tests we talk about, right? So but you, as long as you're... It, it might look like a, one of those cartoon tornado clouds where everything's spinning around and nothing's really in any sort of formation, or it doesn't look organized, but if it's all moving in the same direction, then I think that's success in this field. Mm-hmm. So you find a niche thing proving clinical value or utility of something. No one else has really looked at it. It doesn't have to be incredibly flashy, but it's new. And if you really work hard at it and work at, then that, that becomes a, a, a big piece moving in the right, moving in the right direction. And I think it, it really becomes, I think, in a, in a way- Um, recognizing the opportunities, uh, being actionable in that period of time where it's, where it's, it's appropriate to do so, and asking yourself, like, what, what, what will this opportunity do for me directly or, or indirectly if I, if I go down this path a little bit? What other things could this opportunity provide me? Mm-hmm. So it... And that's hard, I think, early on. T- It's hard later, too. But it's r- but it's even more anxiety producing early on, I think. I think later you just know you have to struggle and battle with the decision.

Duane Newton 1:27:05

Mm-hmm.

Kyle Rodino 1:27:05

Early you feel very uncertain and fearful and, and, like, you're going to make the wrong one. And now I just think sometimes I miss opportunities. I don't necessarily make the wrong ones.

Duane Newton 1:27:15

Mm-hmm. So that kind of leads a little bit into how, the last question I have for you, which I've, I've asked in different ways to people, um, alr- you know, in each of these episodes is, uh, if you could go back to young Kyle and tell young Kyle something, not, you know, do this differently, but- Is there any advice that you would give a, a younger version of yourself?

Kyle Rodino 1:27:51

Um Y- y- yeah. I mean, I think I would tell the graduate student version of myself, um, uh, that just be- to be more confident in, in the idea that hard work will get you really far. I did feel five years older than pretty much everybody that was starting, had different life experiences, was at a different phase of my life. And, but, and I knew that this was, this was, like, kind of it for me. I needed to succeed. So I felt a lot of pressure in, in that capacity. A lot of people helped me get that opportunity and be where I was. And as I mentioned, I could not get to the end and not get a fellowship. I, it was a- Mm-hmm 100% the only thing I wanted to do. So I think I could tell that person 70 straight days in the lab is probably too many. Like, one day off would be okay. But, but the hard work is gonna pay off. W- I don't want that person to slow down in, uh, in the long term. I want that person to keep going, but I want them to know that it's gonna, that they're right, that the hard work will pay off. Um, I think I should probably tell the person in, in undergrad to, like, focus a little bit more and get it- But, but if I tell that per- you know, the butterfly effect of that- Yeah will I not become a clinical microbiologist- Yeah then I will not have this job, and I will- Yeah be something else. Yeah. And that, so I don't wanna tell that person-

Duane Newton 1:29:34

Yeah

Kyle Rodino 1:29:34

that necessarily.

Duane Newton 1:29:35

You needed to, you needed to have that. I, I, I totally agree. It's not like you would change anything. It's like, give yourself a break, you know? And I think that sort of be, um, be kinder to yourself i- is kind of a, a little bit of it. Like, you're doing a g- you're doing the right thing.

Kyle Rodino 1:30:01

Yeah.

Duane Newton 1:30:02

That's what I'm hearing. This is- Really awesome I, um, I appreciate you. Uh, you've been, I think through v- a variety of things, you know, getting a chance to, um, first meeting you and getting a chance to know you and having you be involved in the, the different things that I've been doing, um, has been a tremendous joy and it really, like Unexpected but very much appreciated gift. So thank you. Thank you for your support and, uh, being here, and, um, you're a really cool dude, man.

Kyle Rodino 1:30:56

Thank- you too, Duane. I, I... The, uh, the thanks is to you for creating and thinking of this type of community medical microbiologist lab director, uh, enhancement. Uh, you know, these jobs, we have a very small community. You- one would think that we would be extremely connected to each other all of the time. And in our own little social niches, maybe we are. We lean on each other a lot. But it's also a very isolating pr- role, right? There's one or two of you at most places. Most places have one medical microbiologist. And it's funny to me how, how often there's probably a few dozen of us thinking about the same challenge at the same time, all independent of each other. Mm-hmm. And then we do connect through ClinMicroNet or our own, our own networks, but this network of connecting to people a little bit more on a personal level, and then seeing them at scientific conferences and feeling more comfortable catching up with them and talking to them. My network within this small community, which I thought, I thought my network was already pretty big, my network has grown so much more over the last couple years because of you that really thank you for, for creating a place where we could connect on a more than professional level, but be there for each other professionally now because we know each other personally

Duane Newton 1:32:36

Um, you're welcome. Uh, thanks. That, uh, means a lot I thought I was gonna get through this episode without crying, but

Kyle Rodino 1:32:51

I can't leave that with that.

Duane Newton 1:32:54

Kyle, thanks. Thanks again. Look forward to seeing you, um, in person, and one of these days we'll get on the golf course, and I'll, uh, I'll, I'll carry your clubs.

Kyle Rodino 1:33:07

Sounds like a, sounds like a plan.

Duane Newton 1:33:10

All righty, buddy. Well, you take care.

Kyle Rodino 1:33:12

You too. Have a great weekend. See you. See you later.

Duane Newton 1:33:14

Bye.

1:33:19

If you're enjoying Navigating Your Path, please be sure to like or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to directly connect with me, you can reach out via my podcast email, which is listed in the description of this episode. The description also contains the links to the podcast website and YouTube channel, where you can check out more of my content. Feel free to reach out if you'd like to share any comments or even make suggestions about future topics to discuss. I'd also love to hear from you if you have suggestions for people for me to interview, or even if you'd like to come on the podcast and be interviewed by me. You can also contact me if you'd like to learn more about what it is that I do as a professional development coach. I look forward to having you join me next time. Take good care